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01-28-2013, 12:12 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
I think the theme of this thread started off with somewhat of a put down by choosing "I Give Up" as its title, and then adding:


Of course, that's in his mind, not in reality. There is nothing second class about Pentax or even someone's Samsung point and shoot if it fits one's needs.

Obviously all choices come with a price. Most of us who've used larger formats know the advantages of a bigger negative and faster lenses, but also the disavantages of size and cost that come with them. Pentax does a pretty good job of giving the choice of compactness, weather proofing, and lens selection for APS-C at an affordable price. In fact, it may even be the best at that (and some of us think it will get even better).

A thread on what another system has to offer is great, but setting up the discussion in a way that characterizes Pentax as something one "gives up" on or that makes one "second class" is neither polite nor accurate. Forty years ago, before getting into digital photography, I owned Nikon equipment, and after ten years switched to Leica. Boy was I proud of my "superior" system, as though it was going to make me a better photographer. It didn't.

A thread that suggests one's photography is being so severly limited by Pentax that one has to "give up" seems to be blaming the equipment. Everybody knows that most people, by far, aren't nearly as good a photographer as their equipment allows. I've seen it a zillion times, a person gets better stuff and then posts the same sort of mediocre pictures he always has, but with better resolution!

Les,
Go read my post again. . .slowly. . .you missed the explicitly stated point. . . Which is that Pentax is selling so few cameras these days that support is much less than for other brands. Now, for one small example, I've already ordered a custom RRS L-plate for my D800 with battery grip.

01-28-2013, 12:41 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by stbdtack Quote
Les,
Go read my post again. . .slowly. . .you missed the explicitly stated point. . . Which is that Pentax is selling so few cameras these days that support is much less than for other brands. Now, for one small example, I've already ordered a custom RRS L-plate for my D800 with battery grip.
I think I understand that you want to do things the Pentax system doesn't support, I certainly can get behind that, but I still don't see how that makes Pentax "second class."

I knew of the limitations, and advantages, of Pentax when I chose it. Actually, Pentax offers more than I want or need in a system (not that I won't welcome FF when they produce it). It lets me do a lot with five first-rate primes, a great tripod, Metz flash . . . I could buy better, but have less money for other hobbies. You could buy a lot better too. I mean, compared to a Hassleblad H5D or Phase One some would consider the Nikon D800 second (or third) class.
01-28-2013, 12:59 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
I think I understand that you want to do things the Pentax system doesn't support, I certainly can get behind that, but I still don't see how that makes Pentax "second class."

I knew of the limitations, and advantages, of Pentax when I chose it. Actually, Pentax offers more than I want or need in a system (not that I won't welcome FF when they produce it). It lets me do a lot with five first-rate primes, a great tripod, Metz flash . . . I could buy better, but have less money for other hobbies. You could buy a lot better too. I mean, compared to a Hassleblad H5D or Phase One some would consider the Nikon D800 second (or third) class.
Just MY perspective and opinion, that's all.
01-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #109
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Pentax doesn't make its customers second-rate, but they might feel like they're missing something since the D800, D700, D600, 5DMkIII, etc are also available. Certainly they are a lot more expensive than Pentax's flagship dSLR but there isn't even the upgrade option so far for Pentaxians to take up. Nevertheless the Pentax APS-C gear is good and takes care of most situations. There needn't be any reason to justify going with a D800 - just that someone likes it is good enough. There is enough in the camera to like above the K-5 for it to have that effect. I'm hopeful Pentax does take this on board and develops its own excellent FF dSLR this year or next.

01-28-2013, 03:52 PM - 1 Like   #110
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I give up too...on this thread LOL.
01-28-2013, 05:00 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Pentax doesn't make its customers second-rate, but they might feel like they're missing something since the D800, D700, D600, 5DMkIII, etc are also available. Certainly they are a lot more expensive than Pentax's flagship dSLR but there isn't even the upgrade option so far for Pentaxians to take up. Nevertheless the Pentax APS-C gear is good and takes care of most situations. There needn't be any reason to justify going with a D800 - just that someone likes it is good enough. There is enough in the camera to like above the K-5 for it to have that effect. I'm hopeful Pentax does take this on board and develops its own excellent FF dSLR this year or next.
I completely agree with you - the Pentax lenses that I have now I couldn't see doing without, 100% love the 15mm and 43mm neither of which can be replaced in another setup, and the 50-135mm is also a spectacular lens.

The one thing I would mention though is the the price of entry to FF isn't as expensive as you've mentioned. Yes, the K-5II/s versions were released at a lower price than the K-5 owing to reuse of existing parts, but the K-5 was released at $1500 - I bought it right away, and didn't regret it at all. I bought the D600 bundle for $2K in December - the kit lens is worth about $300, and other 2 accessories I got from adorama are/were about $100 each - bringing the cost of the body to the same amount as the K-5 cost me 27 months ago.

While I'm not selling the pentax lenses I have left anytime soon, it is true that Pentax will begin to lose some customers with the current price of entry of FF.
01-28-2013, 08:09 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
There needn't be any reason to justify going with a D800 - just that someone likes it is good enough.
Now there is the first "new view" I have seen in this thread! It actually makes good sense. I'm still here checking in, off and on, to see if that guy shows up with his new camera that cures cancer or prevents heart attacks...he'll be around sooner or later, I just know it!

Regards!

01-29-2013, 01:13 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by pxpaulx Quote
The one thing I would mention though is the the price of entry to FF isn't as expensive as you've mentioned. Yes, the K-5II/s versions were released at a lower price than the K-5 owing to reuse of existing parts, but the K-5 was released at $1500 - I bought it right away, and didn't regret it at all. I bought the D600 bundle for $2K in December - the kit lens is worth about $300, and other 2 accessories I got from adorama are/were about $100 each - bringing the cost of the body to the same amount as the K-5 cost me 27 months ago.
The D600 also is reusing D7000 parts, keep that in mind. The D7000 was launched at the same time with the original K-5, for roughly the same price.
01-29-2013, 01:47 AM   #114
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The D7000 at release was $300 less than the K-5. Maybe the stains were extra.


Jason
01-29-2013, 02:03 AM   #115
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Choice of brand is everyone's right. Buy what you want...just don't assume it would magically improve your photos just because you spent 3 times as much. In the end, it's the one behind the viewfinder that captures the photo.

Before you switch, think about this for a minute: the pulitzers were captured by tools that are so much inferior to what you already have now.
01-29-2013, 05:13 AM   #116
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When I bought my first brand new full frame dslr it was $1750 new, at same point in time the Pentax K-7 was $1299.
Canon 5D for me was just $451 more than Pentax very best aps-c dslr.

Back when I bought my 5D Mark II brand new for $1999 the Pentax K-5 was $1599,
so just $400 more for full frame versus the Pentax very best aps-c K-5.

Thesedays 5D Mark II has reinflated in price to $1799, up from $1599 where it was at Christmas 2012 at B&H.
I also see Pentax K-5II is $1196 & now the Canon 6D is $1899 at B&H.

These are currently a $600 & $700 premium over Pentax best aps-c dslrs, not 3x the money.

For me buying full frame dslrs did improve my photography.

I still sit on my Pentax lens treasures, originally waiting for Pentax, then Hoya Pentax, now Ricoh Pentax to offer full frame.
In the meantime I'll continue to shoot full frame via other brands.

I suspect I'll never buy another brand new smaller sensor aps-c camera from anyone so I'll never buy another brand new Pentax dslr again.

Happy Full Frame Shopping !

Last edited by Samsungian; 01-29-2013 at 06:36 AM.
01-29-2013, 07:40 AM - 1 Like   #117
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The full frame viewfinder allows me to really see what I'm shooting.

My eyes are aging. The aps-c tunnel vision type viewfinders are not a joy for me to use.

Life's short, why should I compromise ?
I could afford full frame & I bought in without cashing out of my all full frame k mount glass.

To help me afford my additional system aquistion I did not reward Hoya with K-7 or K-5 purchases at launch netting me a tidy $2900 savings. Money I spent elsewhere on brand new glass.


Pentax chooses to ignore full frame 24x36 after annoucing it in February 2001.

Thats 12 years & counting...

Pentax 6mp Digital SLR hands-on: Digital Photography Review

Since 2008 I've bought zero brand new Pentax gear.


And before anyone says it:
Pentax 645D is not an option for me.
I will not buy an $8,800 camera or $9,995 at launch when under $2,000 cameras please me.
01-29-2013, 08:33 AM - 1 Like   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Of course, that's in his mind, not in reality. There is nothing second class about Pentax or even someone's Samsung point and shoot if it fits one's needs.
... or any other camera for that matter. My first "good" camera was one of these, bought for a buck at a thrift store in the early 80s:



No meter, slow f:3.5 lens, top shutter speed of 1/300 sec... It had a sharp lens, though, and I took what I think are some damn good photos with it, 'til the shutter finally gave up on it. Next camera was a 1950-something meterless Minolta A rangefinder. Got great photos with that too, and the "guess-o-matic" exposure meter method taught me a lot. When I finally scored a camera with a built-in meter (K1000) and interchangeable lenses, I thought I hit the big time.

That's why I'm kind of amused by the "pros" who think you can't get good image quality with an APS-C sensor, or that unless you own the most expensive Canikon body with the most expensive primes, you're a lesser photographer and probably an inferior being. Some of us know better.

QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Forty years ago, before getting into digital photography, I owned Nikon equipment, and after ten years switched to Leica. Boy was I proud of my "superior" system, as though it was going to make me a better photographer. It didn't.
Yep. I learned that lesson myself, though I couldn't afford a Leica. I owned a whole lotta cameras over the years, though.. Including top of the line pro Nikon 35mm gear. It was nice, but didn't give me any better photos than the Pentax K1000, Minolta SRTs, Canon AE-1P, Olympus OMs, or any of the other systems I've owned over the years.

A lot has been said about the limited selection of Pentax lenses... Leica's S-mount DSLR lens lineup is about a dozen. Pentax's lineup is currently 30-some. Not to mention the aftermarket lenses available.
01-30-2013, 12:02 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by DavidOBryan Quote
I kind of feel the same way as Tom. I don't think changing brands will really matter that much to me personally, but hey its your money. I hope you enjoy your new toys.

After reading this I went on Camerasize and was really shocked at how much larger the D800 is than the K5. The main cameras that tempt me are the small full frames like Leicas and the Sony RX1. I have no desire to haul arund a camera even bigger then the one I already have.
I was shocked as well in the size difference. You could replace the gas station restroom key cinder block with that behemoth!
01-30-2013, 12:31 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Driline Quote
I was shocked as well in the size difference. You could replace the gas station restroom key cinder block with that behemoth!
It's not too bad with a prime. But throw a zoom like the 24-70G on there and you have a serious cinder block

I compared the D800 w/ 24-70G with a K-5 w/ Sigma 17-50 the other night. The Pentax/Sigma system was more comfortable to hold and more manageable in general while still having pretty good IQ for far less cost. But there are some significant advantages with the D800...it is certainly knocking on medium format's door and if you want the best IQ from 35mm, it's the place. It's attractive in price and weight if you compare it to the larger sensor cameras (but same goes for the K5 )

I see significant pros and cons to both the APS-C and FF systems. Just depends on what you need or want. Honestly, it'd be nice to have both, though that does get pricey fast.
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