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12-09-2013, 09:20 AM   #436
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So here's a crazy comparison for all you Foveon-heads out there... can you tell which of these (100% crop) photos is from a Sigma SD1 Merrill with a Sigma 70mm Macro, and which is from a Pentax K-3 with a Sigma 70mm Macro (resized to match the Sigma). Taken a minute apart, but there were drifting clouds...

I'll be posting a full comparison thread later, with the Merrill files "inflated" to match the Pentax (which is closer to what pixelpeepers want), but this is an interesting beginning...





12-09-2013, 09:27 AM   #437
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I'd say the top on is the sharper image….and more Merril like…
12-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #438
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'd say the top on is the sharper image….and more Merril like…
You might want to look again... I had some upload problems (set JPEG compression too high) and swapped the images.
12-09-2013, 09:40 AM   #439
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I can see a little bit more detail in the first one (especially in the bottom right corner) but it's hard to tell anyway.

12-09-2013, 09:52 AM   #440
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Looking at the screen at the top of the image on what looks like a catwalk and the cable above them, the top image is better… looking at the bolt , bottom edge middle and the screens to the left of them.. the images are pretty much the same, but the top has better colour and contrast.. I'm not sure you've achieved the same focus point.
12-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #441
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I think the sharpest picture should be from sd1m
12-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #442
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm not sure you've achieved the same focus point.
That's pretty much guaranteed... they were both at f/8, but they were not quite at infinity, and there are *lots* of nice targets for those phase-detection sensors!

What I find curious, is that even shot at ISO 100 and scaled down, there is some visible noise in the K-3 file, just like in the SD1M file. I know which is which, and frankly I prefer the colors of the first and the detail of the second, but that isn't going put a single camera in my hand any time soon...

12-09-2013, 11:12 AM   #443
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I'm pretty sure one is the Pentax, and two is the Sigma. It's the colors that do it for me. The Foveon renders color in a more subtle, matter-of-fact way, and continues to look different no matter how much you process the picture.

Also, the clouds are a good clue. I know you said they're moving, and the two pictures aren't of the same sky, but I don't think a Bayer camera would render the clouds the way they look in two.

Detail between the two is so similar, I wouldn't judge based on that. These cameras are very close in resolution. One looks ever so slightly bleary compared to two, but it's so subtle, I might be imagining it. Confirmation bias and all, you know.

Thanks for doing this, panoguy. I'm looking forward to your full comparison. Get ready for people to call your lenses bad, decentered, misfocused, etc, etc...
12-09-2013, 11:42 AM - 1 Like   #444
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
I'm pretty sure one is the Pentax, and two is the Sigma. It's the colors that do it for me. The Foveon renders color in a more subtle, matter-of-fact way, and continues to look different no matter how much you process the picture.
Well, you've certainly got the eye for Foveon! #1 is the K-3 (scaled down) and #2 is the SD1M at it's native 14.6 MP. Look for the "black halos" around the bolt holes in the red beams against the white tower. That's what Sigma Photo Pro adds! When I do the comparison images, I'll be using Iridient Developer, which doesn't "grunge up" the midtones...

Clarkey was out on this cold photowalk with me, and had his K-5IIs, but we didn't shoot with it because I hadn't AF adjusted the 70mm macro to it. His Fuji XE-1 was his real weapon of choice, though!

QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
Detail between the two is so similar, I wouldn't judge based on that. These cameras are very close in resolution. One looks ever so slightly bleary compared to two, but it's so subtle, I might be imagining it. Confirmation bias and all, you know.

Thanks for doing this, panoguy. I'm looking forward to your full comparison. Get ready for people to call your lenses bad, decentered, misfocused, etc, etc...
Oh, I'm ready... I've been here before, and this time the news is relatively good for Pentax. "Not so far behind Sigma Merrill IQ!" But you're quite right, there is a "foveon look" that can't be replicated in post-processing (and I'm really good at PP), so it isn't just the sharpness and detail.

AND because this is a "post-it-up" kind of thread, here is the Fuji-guy himself, as shot by the SD1M w/ 70mm Macro wide open:


(Processed in Iridient Developer)

Last edited by panoguy; 12-09-2013 at 12:08 PM.
12-09-2013, 04:10 PM - 2 Likes   #445
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Almost no PP on this one, I liked it this way :


12-09-2013, 07:54 PM   #446
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Nice comparison panoguy. To me Foveon pictures look different in numerous ways. The thing most people notice first is sharpness.

I would also add that Foveon has more color detail. Bayer seems to homogenize the colors. I have taken shots with the Sigma that just don't impress as much with Bayer filter cameras. Subtle changes in shades of rocks etc. Bayer is more cartoony looking. Like going from CD sound to SACD/DVD-a or analog.

Bayer varies in resolution depending on the color. There are not equal numbers of RBG pixels. Color of light also has an effect.

Looking at these two shots, without focusing in on one point, the Foveon has a greater 3D look. The Bayer looks more flat or 2D. Foveon does this often.

There is also a difference in the way an image trails off in the distance. Bayer tends to go mushy and the Foveon hangs together better.

Don't think Bayer will ever look like Foveon. With Bayer you are seperating the RBG colors in a side by side and up down pattern. This is like a loudspeaker with tweeter, midrange, woofer mounted on cabinet face. Speaker sounds good until you hear a single panel electrostat, full range dynamic driver, or a concentric (tweeter in middle of woofer) speaker. There is a coherence that multi drivers can't touch. The ear can tell sounds are coming from different locations. Our eyes can tell too.

Check out the Sigma DP1/2Merrill reviews by Jonathan Valin (The Absolute Sound). He shoots everything from medium format to 8x10. It is very instructive.

Thanks
barondla
12-09-2013, 08:13 PM   #447
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The comparisons are always interesting but for me, i just like the "look" that the foveon produces. The detail, color, 3d effect it often produces and somewhat film-like quality. All of those justify its quirks. If i hadn't gotten rid of my Pentax gear the K3 might be on order. I'm still holding out for something with 'astonishing' high iso capability. Sensors are approaching what i want, but still not there for my taste. I'm not technically oriented, just judge by eye.
12-09-2013, 09:21 PM - 1 Like   #448
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Oh, @ivorie, I forgot to ask: who's that handsome devil in the red jacket in your snowy night pictures?

@panoguy , Clarkey the Fuji-guy not bad looking, either! Very sharp portrait. Maybe we should get portraits of all ourselves and our fellow photographers on this thread. I've never actually been on the other side of a Foveon camera. I'd be afraid of what it might pick up!

Okay, scratch that idea. I'll stick with portraits of Skippy. She doesn't mind.

DP2M, f/6.3, ISO 200
12-09-2013, 09:38 PM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
Oh, @ivorie, I forgot to ask: who's that handsome devil in the red jacket in your snowy night pictures?
As you guessed, self portrait in the 12 degree cold with the only other soul braving the chill. Set the camera on a 3" post with 10 sec timer in manual mode. I 'm not fond of cold weather but snowfall always seems to get me out when everyone else stays indoors (amazing how quiet it gets). I walked the 20 minutes into town for coffee. Got in at 9:30 just 1/2hr before closing.

Where are the rest of you??? someplace warm i hope

Couldn't resist taking a shot with the "Little Luxuries" sign plus i found the the non smile with the "Today I will be Jolly" sign in the window across the street to be a bit humorous.

[IMG]
[/IMG]
12-10-2013, 02:12 PM   #450
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
Where are the rest of you??? someplace warm i hope
It's always warm in the Valley of the Sun!

SD1M, ISO 100, Zeiss Jena 135 f/3.5 @f/5.6


To be fair, I did take this in October. It was only 93° that day.
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