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08-31-2013, 12:42 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Some thoughts reading the thread ( I have both the D800E, after selling the D800, and D600).

1. Yes the D800 is a big step up from the D600 but I still think you have under estimated the quality of this camera.
The D600 or the D800? The D600 is not crap. but it's crap compared to the D800 and cannot keep up to the K5. Sorry, but I wont be able to be convinced otherwise. :P I did enjoy the D600 late in my time with it, but at the end of the day I think it was a waste of money as I found I wasn't creating anything better with it than the K5. It was the operational disadvantages and the fact I don't find the sensor any better than the 16mp sensor in the K5. The D800 fixes 90% of my operational issues, and gives me more of what I loved about the K5 for exposure bracketing and strobe flash sync speeds for example. It's also 10x more comfortable to hold than the D600 which was just incredibly painful to use longtime for me.

QuoteQuote:
2. I can't understand why you buy a $3,000+ camera and then compromise on the SD cards ! Buy the best !
I haven't bought any SD cards for the D800. I bought high speed CF cards though. 700x speed CF is the fastest locally available not through special order.

QuoteQuote:
3. Those huge files are fantastic for bird photography since you can crop so deep into them. The D600's are almost as good and have just as good DR. For a landscape tog the D600 is superb.
I agree, the huge files allows for major croping and still keeping the ability to make large prints at high dpi without sacrificing IQ. However I don't believe the D600's DR is anywhere near as good. Shooting live bands with the D800, D600, and K5 I can pull more from the shadows with the K5 than I can with D600, and even more with the D800, even recovering highlights with the D800. For landscape I think the D600 can do a swell job here. With the constant lighting changes with live music photography its easy to hit a spot where you get the perfect shot but the lighting changed and you just under exposed by -6.0. I can recover that with the K5. I can't with the D600. I can recover it and make it stellar with the D800.

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4. K5 & Ltds is a fantastic kit.
Naturally

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5. You can reduce file size by reducing 14 to 12 bits with virtually no noticeable degradation.

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Oops flight embarkation has started - I'll come back to this later !
Cheers
Kevin
where you going? can I come too?


I'd love to continue this debate. Were just showcasing our findings, and the more we can help others the better. I'm not math/spec reader who analyzes the spec sheets, but I know what I see, and thats what I go by.

08-31-2013, 08:46 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
The D600 or the D800? The D600 is not crap. but it's crap compared to the D800 and cannot keep up to the K5
This sounds like you have some strong personal preferences for the K-5 ergonomics, or look/feel/size, or something... but it's hard to figure out how, in any measurable sense, the D600 'can't keep up with' the K-5. It beats it in every major area (sensor performance, AF, etc) save SR in body. There are a few small checklist items that the K-5 has over the D600, but I personally don't see how those minor things trump a 24MP, full-frame sensor of that quality, for that price.



Now, I can see liking the K-5 in combination with a few small, sweet limiteds - there may not be any combinations in the Nikon realm that are pleasing in quite the same way - but to say the D600 body 'can't keep up' is odd to me.

QuoteQuote:
However I don't believe the D600's DR is anywhere near as good. Shooting live bands with the D800, D600, and K5 I can pull more from the shadows with the K5 than I can with D600
It is as good, though, and above base ISO the DR pulls away from the K-5. It's also about exactly as-good as the D800's DR curve.

Here's DxO's raw EDR measurements, followed by Bill Claff's PDR formulations showing how the D600 and D800 track (D7000 added for comparison as well):






If you claim otherwise, what that suggests to me is that you may have been having problems metering with the D600. The DR is there.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 08-31-2013 at 09:02 PM.
08-31-2013, 09:05 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This sounds like you have some strong personal preferences for the K-5 ergonomics, or look/feel/size, or something... but it's hard to figure out how, in any measurable sense, the D600 'can't keep up with' the K-5. It beats it in every major area (sensor performance, AF, etc) save SR in body. There are a few small checklist items that the K-5 has over the D600, but I personally don't see how those minor things trump a 24MP, full-frame sensor of that quality, for that price.

Now, I can see liking the K-5 in combination with a few small, sweet limiteds - there may not be any combinations in the Nikon realm that are pleasing in quite the same way - but to say the D600 body 'can't keep up' is odd to me.



.
The DXO test actually shows exactly what I'm talking about.

The Dynamic Range rating is different by 0.1, and the color depth on the Nikon is only better by 1.4. It's the low light which is much better on the D600, which I will agree was my finding as well.

Here are the main areas where the D600 loses out to the K5 in my opinion:

Ergonomics
button placement
body construction
weather sealing
shutter speed
IR ports on the front
wired flash cable
wired shutter remote
number of bracketing exposures

Where the D600 beats out the K5

Full frame depth of field advantage (or disadvantage depending on the situation)
Lower noise
better autofocus speed
better autococus tracking
Video moe


The D800 answers all but one gripe I have of K5 vs D600, and thats the iso button placement.


I can't explain the DR charts, but if the settings are the same between the two cameras, I was able to pull just as much out of the shadows on the K5 as I was the D600 during my initial tests. Shooting live bands I usually sit iso 800, 1/60sec and f2.8 on my K5. I push that to iso 1000-1600 on the D600 with a faster shutter so I can get rid of shake. at the end of the day in this situation, the K5 wins

Last edited by Wired; 08-31-2013 at 09:12 PM.
09-01-2013, 07:09 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
The DXO test actually shows exactly what I'm talking about.
Here are the main areas where the D600 loses out to the K5 in my opinion:

Ergonomics
button placement
body construction
weather sealing
shutter speed
IR ports on the front
wired flash cable
wired shutter remote
number of bracketing exposures
My thoughts on my D600 (I haven't used a K5):

- I find the feel and button placement to be okay.
- It's not a pro-grade camera but rather an entry-level 35mm frame DSLR so I'm not that concerned about body construction. My shooting style includes me using a camera strap wrapped around my wrist at all times so in 27 years I've dropped a camera just once.
- No, I won't use my camera in the rain but, honestly, I wouldn't use any camera in the rain. I have been tempted by the old Nikonos cameras over the years.
- Shutter speed? Are we talking about needing super fast shutter speeds in low-light conditions?
- No, the D600 doesn't have the old-school connections for flash and remote but my shoe mount flash cable works perfectly and the D600 includes its own remote connection via the GPS jack. I don't expect to see pros picking the D600 for studio work.
- Number of bracketing exposures? I'd think you would want either more bracketing exposures or a wider DR, not both. Is this another case of very low-light conditions and a need to tailor the lighting composition? I keep thinking the wider DR + HDR concept will render bracketing obsolete.

If a person is starting from scratch with a camera system I certainly believe all options are on the table and I find the K5II and the Ltd primes to be very tempting. I've also shot Nikon for twelve years now because of the options available during that time frame. I was ready to pull the trigger on a D800 but decided it's pro-grade build, larger file size, and wider DR just weren't that important to me for the extra $1000 US. The D600 is the camera for me at this time. Yes, I shoot landscapes and reasonably well lighted shots. We're talking about pixel-peeping here but I've found simply stunning results with 200% views of shots I've captured with my D600 and my AF-D primes including my 20/2.8 which so many folks on the Interweb believe to be a dog. When friends ask my opinions on Pentax vs. Nikon I always say my results point to both being excellent in different ways and I believe that to be true here.

One person asked if the optical formulas of the Nikon primes are as good as those of Pentax. I've enjoyed shooting with my Pentax gear quite a bit over the years but there is also a very clear, scientific and clinical look about my Nikon shots which I find refreshing and pleasing. Perhaps the results for Nikon shooters point to a camera + lens system providing a baseline image intended for post-processing work. Yes, I must choose my Nikon gear carefully to get the out-of-focus style I want. My first SLR lens ever was an M50/2 so carefully tending to out-of-focus areas isn't new to me.

09-01-2013, 07:22 AM   #35
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QuoteQuote:
My thoughts on my D600 (I haven't used a K5):
So... ummmm, what "Pentax gear" are you comparing the D600 to?
09-01-2013, 07:29 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by B Grace Quote
My thoughts on my D600 (I haven't used a K5):

- I find the feel and button placement to be okay.
- It's not a pro-grade camera but rather an entry-level 35mm frame DSLR so I'm not that concerned about body construction. My shooting style includes me using a camera strap wrapped around my wrist at all times so in 27 years I've dropped a camera just once.
- No, I won't use my camera in the rain but, honestly, I wouldn't use any camera in the rain. I have been tempted by the old Nikonos cameras over the years.
- Shutter speed? Are we talking about needing super fast shutter speeds in low-light conditions?
- No, the D600 doesn't have the old-school connections for flash and remote but my shoe mount flash cable works perfectly and the D600 includes its own remote connection via the GPS jack. I don't expect to see pros picking the D600 for studio work.
- Number of bracketing exposures? I'd think you would want either more bracketing exposures or a wider DR, not both. Is this another case of very low-light conditions and a need to tailor the lighting composition? I keep thinking the wider DR + HDR concept will render bracketing obsolete.

If a person is starting from scratch with a camera system I certainly believe all options are on the table and I find the K5II and the Ltd primes to be very tempting. I've also shot Nikon for twelve years now because of the options available during that time frame. I was ready to pull the trigger on a D800 but decided it's pro-grade build, larger file size, and wider DR just weren't that important to me for the extra $1000 US. The D600 is the camera for me at this time. Yes, I shoot landscapes and reasonably well lighted shots. We're talking about pixel-peeping here but I've found simply stunning results with 200% views of shots I've captured with my D600 and my AF-D primes including my 20/2.8 which so many folks on the Interweb believe to be a dog. When friends ask my opinions on Pentax vs. Nikon I always say my results point to both being excellent in different ways and I believe that to be true here.

One person asked if the optical formulas of the Nikon primes are as good as those of Pentax. I've enjoyed shooting with my Pentax gear quite a bit over the years but there is also a very clear, scientific and clinical look about my Nikon shots which I find refreshing and pleasing. Perhaps the results for Nikon shooters point to a camera + lens system providing a baseline image intended for post-processing work. Yes, I must choose my Nikon gear carefully to get the out-of-focus style I want. My first SLR lens ever was an M50/2 so carefully tending to out-of-focus areas isn't new to me.
Right tool for the right job. There are many people happy with the D600 and your one of them. Enjoy the camera, it is good if you don't need some of the extra features.

The bracketing for me is for doing HDR, but I'm not very good at the processing side of it. The wide DR is for low light shooting or for recovering shadows in landscape.

I think the big hurdle for me when it comes to my photography is that I do a wide range of shooting. I get hired mostly for live bands and for misc portrait work. I do the odd wedding as a second shooter as well and even have flown solo a few times ton. Then I do street and city/landscape photos for my own enjoyment.

This wide range of shooting environments is why I get frustrated by a camera that makes me uses "work arounds" to get the shot I want. Thus the D600 never worked for me because I can go from needing low light high shutter performance one day and the next need low iso, thin slice of Focus and high shutter the next. (1.8 iso 100 1/8000)

I just enjoy shooting. I go out almost every day and take photos good and bad and just shoot shoot shoot. I do most of my posting on PF with my phone because I'm always shooting at work or in enjoying my family.


09-01-2013, 09:53 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So... ummmm, what "Pentax gear" are you comparing the D600 to?
Which Pentax DSLR models should I compare the D600 to? The slam-dunk improvement in image quality available by simply using my Nikkor primes on the format for which they were designed was enough for me. A good question here is what happens if/when a Pentax 35mm-format DSLR becomes available. Will Pentax-only shooters continue on the APS-C path or change to 35mm-digital? Would those of us who have a number of older Pentax film-era lenses rather shoot them on an APS-C or 35mm-digital camera?

09-01-2013, 10:32 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by B Grace Quote
- No, I won't use my camera in the rain but, honestly, I wouldn't use any camera in the rain.
I can't say about other peoples experience but I really believe people here on PF are way over exaggerating the WR of Pentax gear in the rain. And by that I mean how useful that feature is.

I have shot several cameras in the rain. WR does not prevent rain drops from getting on the front element thereby blurring your pictures. In my experience it takes a "special kind of rain" to be usable. Forget looking into the direction of the blowing rain if it is heavy kind of thing. Of course your MMV.
09-01-2013, 11:15 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by B Grace Quote
Which Pentax DSLR models should I compare the D600 to? The slam-dunk improvement in image quality available by simply using my Nikkor primes on the format for which they were designed was enough for me. A good question here is what happens if/when a Pentax 35mm-format DSLR becomes available. Will Pentax-only shooters continue on the APS-C path or change to 35mm-digital? Would those of us who have a number of older Pentax film-era lenses rather shoot them on an APS-C or 35mm-digital camera?
thats actually a great question.

I don't know the numbers, and I'm going to speak out of my butt here for a second: What if the FA 77mm LTD out resolves the K5iis' 16mp Sensor, will it out resolve a 24mp FF sensor? Will the image quality be better on the ASPC body or the FF body?


I know when it comes to updated lenses my favorite on my D800 is the 24mm f2.8 D lens. It makes me really wonder how much better the 28mm f1.8 G can be? What am I missing? All I know is, whatever it is, I'm happy enough with my 24 2.8 that it doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is the fact I got this exotic Zeiss 50mm f1.4 Planar ZF 2, but I think at the end of the day the Nikkor 50mm f1.8 G actually out performs it... Makes me wonder if I should just ditch the Zeiss and put it towards upgrading my 80-200 to the 70-200. And that upgrade would only be because I would like to have VR.
09-01-2013, 04:12 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote

I know when it comes to updated lenses my favorite on my D800 is the 24mm f2.8 D lens. It makes me really wonder how much better the 28mm f1.8 G can be? What am I missing? All I know is, whatever it is, I'm happy enough with my 24 2.8 that it doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is the fact I got this exotic Zeiss 50mm f1.4 Planar ZF 2, but I think at the end of the day the Nikkor 50mm f1.8 G actually out performs it... .
You're experiencing what I and many others have - the D800 in most respects makes your existing lenses better. The 'you will see defects more clearly' meme is overblown and doesn't really apply to the final image, only to inspection routines during PP.

For example, I shot that 24 2.8D you mention on my D90 for a while, and I really wasn't impressed, but I've read several accounts now from folks who say it's a really nice lens on the D800. My 20 f/2.8D gets the cold shoulder from some film and aps-c shooters, but I absolutely love it. (Thom Hogan has murmered something about it taking new life on the D800 as well.)
09-01-2013, 06:05 PM   #41
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This is a dangerous thread, I might just have to unsubscribe. Too bad I missed the $2K D800 from Robert's.
09-01-2013, 09:57 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
I can't say about other peoples experience but I really believe people here on PF are way over exaggerating the WR of Pentax gear in the rain. And by that I mean how useful that feature is.

I have shot several cameras in the rain. WR does not prevent rain drops from getting on the front element thereby blurring your pictures. In my experience it takes a "special kind of rain" to be usable. Forget looking into the direction of the blowing rain if it is heavy kind of thing. Of course your MMV.
Coincidently a comment yesterday on the D600 (on FM forum) : Size and weight matter to me much more (backcountry hiking), and it is certainly durable enough. I just carried mine through dirt and dust for 14 days in the Sierra and it never missed a beat.
09-02-2013, 05:02 AM   #43
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Every lens has higher resolution on a sensor with higher resolution, that hardly makes the lens better. It makes the sensor better. The problem with people saying a lens is really nice on a D800 is, they aren't comparing with anything. If there was a lens they liked better on an APS-c camera than they did on a D800 and suddenly they liked the first lens better on the D800, that would be news.

I guess some equate higher resolution with better..... so of course for them, a D800 makes every lens look better.... I'm not sure that, that's saying anything though, unless you're saying that there are lenses that more resolution makes look worse. I'd love to see an example of that. Folks can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.
09-02-2013, 05:43 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Every lens has higher resolution on a sensor with higher resolution, that hardly makes the lens better. It makes the sensor better. The problem with people saying a lens is really nice on a D800 is, they aren't comparing with anything. If there was a lens they liked better on an APS-c camera than they did on a D800 and suddenly they liked the first lens better on the D800, that would be news.

I guess some equate higher resolution with better..... so of course for them, a D800 makes every lens look better.... I'm not sure that, that's saying anything though, unless you're saying that there are lenses that more resolution makes look worse. I'd love to see an example of that. Folks can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.
It was my understanding that different lenses resolved at different resolutions. Hence MTF charts for each lens.



09-02-2013, 05:55 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
It was my understanding that different lenses resolved at different resolutions. Hence MTF charts for each lens.
I'm not sure how that is relevant, unless you'e saying that some lenses are so bad they could produce more pleasing images on a lower resolution sensor. As I said, I'd love to see an example of that.

If MTF charts show anything, it's that how much a lens resolves is probably more dependant on the sensor than the lens. The very best lens of all time on a 3000x2000 pixel sensor, can't resolve more than 3000 x 2000. WHile the argument has been made that sensors are out resolving lenses, as long as higher resolution sensors improve MTF numbers, that can't be true. And so far that is definitely the case. I haven't seen one case of a lens that has plateaued and produces the same LW/PH on a 16 Mp camera as on a 24 MP camera for the same size sensor. Or on a D600 as on a D800. So far even the kit lenses increase their LW/PH numbers with each increase in pixel density.
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