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09-03-2013, 08:29 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
I agree with a lot of what you had said. On paper and lab tests, Nikon excels. In actual output, I prefer Canon.

This snippet of response in the TOP comments coincides with my thoughts.

"What the Nikon chip does seem to do flawlessly, is give me that over-contrasty, over-saturated "juiced" unnatural color..."

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nikon grass and trees look very unnatural. Canon's look much closer to reality. Canon wins on skin tone for me as well.

I think the Sony sensors in general don't do a great job with greens as so many cameras I've seen that use them don't have realistic grass and trees to my eyes. Pentax does a better job than most in tuning the green of the Sony sensor.
I had the exact same conversation with an old photographer, now selling part time for Henry's. I asked him if he was upgrading his Canon 5D for a D800. He had access to the camera before the rest of us, and would have gotten an employee discount if he ordered one. He preferred 5D colours over D800 colours and said he didn't need more than 12.8 MP. Since then I've been looking for a 5D at a great price (as in under $500). People will still pay 3 times that for a 5D system.... just to try it out. I'm dying to see what he's on to.

There's that line about dental technicians " No matter what I do, it's not good enough for her."
Well, there are techno-geeks too. No matter what a camera does, it's not good enough for them. You have a choice, you can take your advice from one or the other. The geeks tend to be more vocal IMHO, others tend to be a little quieter trying to avoid any negative attention from the geeks.

09-03-2013, 08:43 AM   #32
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I seem to remember a story about Kodak and Fuji in the slide film era. Kodak would research how close to reality, to color reproduction accuracy they could get their films... Fuji would pay attention to that but in the end study customer preference.

The link I posted on the other page is worth looking at:
Nikon D7000 Review: Full Review - Imatest
It compares - at least for a handful of cameras - the direction color is shifted...
09-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But... I wonder how much benefit even enthusiasts get out of these "improved" sensors. I believe that the extra color depth, dynamic range, and shadow detail that you see in Toshiba and Sony sensors is not readily visible in straight out of camera jpegs. And if the jpegs from my Canon look as good as my brother's jpegs from his Nikon, then who is the wiser?
Most people in the ever-variable 'enthusiast' ranks are probably not shooting jpeg, but if you are you're not seeing the full benefit of your sensor anyway, and then the differences between sensors are probably mostly nullified. Especially if you're relying on in-camera NR.



.

Last edited by jsherman999; 09-03-2013 at 01:09 PM.
09-03-2013, 12:15 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
Regarding color reproduction, here's a somewhat interesting test:
Nikon D7000 Review: Full Review - Imatest
Interesting. So if I get it right, judging by that test, the K-5 appears to have most f'ked up colors of those tested.

09-03-2013, 01:08 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
There really is nothing too sobering about the sensors anymore.
They are all good enough nowadays despite us enthusiasts who like to pore thru the minute details and declare a 'eureka' moment.
In this case, though, I think I'd really see this 70D performing no better than my D90, it wouldn't be something I only knew by looking at charts.

It would have about the same low-light noise perf, same DR... I would probably feel like I didn't really get much of an upgrade for my money. On the other hand If I were to buy a D7000 (or K-5) I'd see an upgrade over the D90 in IQ, and those camera are from the generation before this 70D.

.
QuoteQuote:
Branding; perception of camera/brand capability (often limited and skewed)... preferences all play a bigger role in the purchase.
I think this ^^ is the lesson, yes. That and just a lock-in that comes from already owning Canon lenses.


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09-03-2013, 01:14 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Since then I've been looking for a 5D at a great price (as in under $500) .
Original 5D, not 5DII? Aside from DOF control, your K-5 is probably better for your uses than the original 5D, Norm.

I know you hate when discussions move into numbers and measurements, but the anecdotal 'you have to try this' can sometimes steer you wrong faster!

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09-03-2013, 01:39 PM   #37
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The 5DC is a camera that defies numbers and measurements. You have to try it.




Last edited by Aegon; 09-03-2013 at 01:43 PM. Reason: put in smiley
09-03-2013, 05:34 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aegon Quote
The 5DC is a camera that defies numbers and measurements. You have to try it.



Actually I might buy one to shoot my Limiteds on, and to play with my FA 50 1.7. (oh, and to check out those Canon colors )
09-03-2013, 05:42 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Original 5D, not 5DII? Aside from DOF control, your K-5 is probably better for your uses than the original 5D, Norm.

I know you hate when discussions move into numbers and measurements, but the anecdotal 'you have to try this' can sometimes steer you wrong faster!

.
Ya, that's why I wouldn't pay more than $500 for one... that's how much I'd gamble to see what these 5D guys are up to. My buddy offered me one from Henry's new but old stock for $1700 or somewhere around there a couple years ago, but that's a lot to spend on a whim.
09-03-2013, 06:13 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Since then I've been looking for a 5D at a great price (as in under $500). People will still pay 3 times that for a 5D system.... just to try it out. I'm dying to see what he's on to.
Norm, I remember when the K5 came out and people raved about the uber sensor. Reid Reviews reviewed the K5. In one of the iso comparisons it was compared against the 5d at low and high iso. Remember the 5d came out in 2005, the K5 came out 5 years later in 2010.

At 100 and 200, both files were pretty much the same. At 400 and on up to 3200, the canon was ahead all the way. At 3200 the Pentax was smoothing away detail, whereas the Canon retained it. This from APS-C's posterboy (at the time) sensor with 5 years of progress and it still could not beat the 5 year older full frame sensor.

The only downside I hear about the 5D classic is that it's a bit of a dust magnet. I don't know if it was this thread or another; someone pointed out David Burnett still shoots a 5DC.

Here is a photo thread, actually the 6th one with Canon 5D classic at POTN.
-=5D CLASSIC admirers, assemble! (6) - Canon Digital Photography Forums It's 407 pages long, so plenty of photos to look at.
09-09-2013, 03:52 AM   #41
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I personally feel that Canon has better WB rendering in difficult mixed lighting.

On the other side of the coin I have a good friend who has always shot Canon and I Nikon and to be honest after seeing hundreds of my files from his friends and also mine from Nikon he says without doubt that Nikon renders the image sharper.

I did my own test between the 5Dmk11 and my D7000 and in my opinion felt that the shots from the Nikon were more detailed and sharper and to my eye nothing in it with re noise up to ISO 2000.

Also have had friends go from Nikon to Canon purely due to those heavy greens and also for the more advanced movie recording.

I'm actually having more fun with a Sony RX100 these days.
09-09-2013, 07:37 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
In this case, though, I think I'd really see this 70D performing no better than my D90, it wouldn't be something I only knew by looking at charts.

It would have about the same low-light noise perf, same DR... I would probably feel like I didn't really get much of an upgrade for my money. On the other hand If I were to buy a D7000 (or K-5) I'd see an upgrade over the D90 in IQ, and those camera are from the generation before this 70D.

I think this ^^ is the lesson, yes. That and just a lock-in that comes from already owning Canon lenses.

.
Perhaps so.....
imo the D90 was at a turning point for aps-c being near to 'good enough' for most stuff.
Of course the Kx followed up on that very well (and better)

So the 70D is sort of 'good enough' for most stuff photographers do, but not much improved since 500D
At least from the sensor standpoint.


QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote


Actually I might buy one to shoot my Limiteds on, and to play with my FA 50 1.7. (oh, and to check out those Canon colors )
You'd need to cut off the lever or find some junk A, FA lenses of the same diameter, snip those off and use that on the good lenses.
With some forcing in, you can mount K-lenses by just removing the lever guard, but it can damage the lever.
I'd not recommend it (damaged a K24 but was lucky that I could get it repaired)


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I had the exact same conversation with an old photographer, now selling part time for Henry's. I asked him if he was upgrading his Canon 5D for a D800. He had access to the camera before the rest of us, and would have gotten an employee discount if he ordered one. He preferred 5D colours over D800 colours and said he didn't need more than 12.8 MP. Since then I've been looking for a 5D at a great price (as in under $500). People will still pay 3 times that for a 5D system.... just to try it out. I'm dying to see what he's on to.
I had K5, now K30, the 5D and the DP1m.
For landscapes and for stuff that don't need high iso or fast AF, I'd suggest the DP1m, which you have also tried.


The 5D is just forgiving because of the low pixel density (not a bad thing).
In fact, for some stuff (esp. the shallow DOF ones)it matters little.
The files can't take as much punishment compared to K5/K30 files.
I don't use it for landscapes because of the latter.
Its the cheapest FF out there and still a good camera for most stuff, but time has passed on and there are better cameras out there for the money if its for purposes other than the usual FF reasons.
my few cents
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