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10-25-2013, 09:54 PM   #46
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Lula had something to say abt situation

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My title for the video seen above, and sub-title for this article, is "Staying Alive". This seems appropriate to me as a statement about the apparent health of the industry. With few exceptions (Sony being the most notable), most companies seem to be marking time. The transition to mirrorless apparently caught the market leaders, Nikon and Canon, a bit by surprise. The Canon M and Nikon 1 didn't quite set the pace for everyone else, and indeed these lackluster offerings have left a gap which Sony is now driving a truck through. Indeed, a truck loaded with some quite innovative new cameras. Fujifilm and Olympus are pushing hard to fill the gap as well, and Panasonic follows.
Is the malaise a result of a bursting of a bubble, or the failure to innovate, or perhaps some of both?

10-25-2013, 10:30 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Is the malaise a result of a bursting of a bubble, or the failure to innovate, or perhaps some of both?
It's far simpler than that- greed, complacency and stupidity.
10-26-2013, 12:35 AM   #48
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Transition to MILCs, oh, yeah. I'll sit back, relax and watch CIPA numbers to see if it really happens.
So far they're still 5x smaller than DSLRs.
10-26-2013, 02:31 AM   #49
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With all these mirrorless cameras out there - I have noticed there are quite a few "new" books about photography with these cameras...and you know what, there isn't a single photograph in those books that couldn't be done with a traditional DSLR.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Transition to MILCs, oh, yeah. I'll sit back, relax and watch CIPA numbers to see if it really happens. So far they're still 5x smaller than DSLRs.
True - and to make the have battery life that can compete with DSLR cameras they will in the end, have to make the cameras as big as DSLR cameras. The only thing really holding mirrorless cameras back in terms of battery capacity is their increased energy usage for such a small form factor - there is only so much room in those small bodies, something has to give.

10-26-2013, 06:30 AM   #50
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When I was amongst the camera-wielding hundreds of thousands at the International Fleet Review in Sydney a couple of weeks ago, in the crowd (at the Opera House foreshore, at Darling Harbour, at Garden Island, during the march past at Town Hall), I even saw more Pentax DSLR users than I saw mirrorless camera users ...

Read into that whatever you like
10-26-2013, 07:35 AM   #51
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Interesting thread. Keep this in mind: it's all about the money. Camera makers (as they exist today) will continue to manufacture and sell interchangeable lens cameras as long as it's profitable to do so. As cheaper, more convenient devices get better at taking photos the higher-end market will continue to shrink.

Nothing lasts forever. Mobile devices are revolutionary and there's no stopping progress. Progress in the eye of non-enthusiasts, that is.

FalconEye is spot on with his high-end audio analogy. It's proof that superior quality isn't what the masses want. It's always a balance between cost/convenience/result.

None of this applies to professional photographers. At least not in the relative short term.
10-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
With all these mirrorless cameras out there - I have noticed there are quite a few "new" books about photography with these cameras...and you know what, there isn't a single photograph in those books that couldn't be done with a traditional DSLR.
But you didn't have to carry that DSLR. Still, no need for a book dedicated to mirrorless, other than a learn your camera type book. I have taken photos that would have been difficult with a DSLR with my mirror-less cameras.


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
True - and to make the have battery life that can compete with DSLR cameras they will in the end, have to make the cameras as big as DSLR cameras. The only thing really holding mirrorless cameras back in terms of battery capacity is their increased energy usage for such a small form factor - there is only so much room in those small bodies, something has to give.
I can shoot all day on one battery, unless I am using the flash a lot. I do usually carry an extra battery, just in case, but it's about the size of a key FOB, so it's not a huge issue; and I've never really had to switch unless the first battery was low to begin with. Mirror-less cameras and DSLRs both have their place.

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
When I was amongst the camera-wielding hundreds of thousands at the International Fleet Review in Sydney a couple of weeks ago, in the crowd (at the Opera House foreshore, at Darling Harbour, at Garden Island, during the march past at Town Hall), I even saw more Pentax DSLR users than I saw mirrorless camera users ...
Can't say the same. Pentax DSLRs are unicorns. I have only ever seen one when I wasn't intentionally meeting with a Pentaxian, but I'm happy you had some sightings. I've seen several m4/3, Sony NEX, Fujis, etc; but Canon and Nikon DSLRs are ubiquitous.

10-26-2013, 12:50 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
It's far simpler than that- greed, complacency and stupidity.
In Photoshop terms, thats another layer of the problem. In even large companies, work quality often depends on a few individual workers. Then of course, managers and supervisors can contribute their own "stupid" decisions. Its easy for big companies to lose their way and "focus".

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Transition to MILCs, oh, yeah. I'll sit back, relax and watch CIPA numbers to see if it really happens.
So far they're still 5x smaller than DSLRs.
Thats true in the USA. But in Japan, MILCs now constitute 50% of all ILCs. The rest of the world is somewhere in-between those 2 countries. Look at all the buzz created just on PF when the Nex FF news broke. Its like a sea tide, it just keeps happening whether we want it to, or not. Perhaps this was what it was like when a digital sensor started to replace film. I have no idea what the end state will be.

QuoteQuote:
Digitalis: True - and to have battery life that can compete with DSLR cameras they will in the end, have to make the cameras as big as DSLR cameras. The only thing really holding mirrorless cameras back in terms of battery capacity is their increased energy usage for such a small form factor - there is only so much room in those small bodies, something has to give.
I agree - its a huge problem. My K5 just runs and runs on one battery charge. My Nex 6 easily runs down in less than a day sometimes.

QuoteOriginally posted by krebsy75 Quote
Interesting thread. Keep this in mind: it's all about the money. Camera makers (as they exist today) will continue to manufacture and sell interchangeable lens cameras as long as it's profitable to do so. As cheaper, more convenient devices get better at taking photos the higher-end market will continue to shrink.

FalconEye is spot on with his high-end audio analogy. It's proof that superior quality isn't what the masses want. It's always a balance between cost/convenience/result.
I don't feel negative about it at all. I'm an engineer by training, and its one of the first things you learn - there are trade-offs in every decision. And "supply and demand" has a lot to say about what's produced. But its like a bell-curve, there will always be higher-end products. And i agree with Falk, the sooner the bubble is over - the better.

Last edited by philbaum; 10-26-2013 at 12:57 PM.
10-26-2013, 01:07 PM - 1 Like   #54
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Yesterday I went to the Sculpture by the Sea exhibition and took over 600 photos on my NEX6 - on one battery. That's about normal for me.

During the International Fleet Review (the same event that rawr was referring to) I attended Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photowalk with a group of photographers. In that group, there were only two Pentaxians (both of them are friends of mine). Otherwise it was a Canikonian DSLR group. In terms of people outside our group, I saw plenty of mobile phones used as cameras, and lots of mirrorless.

I took this with my NEX6 and Summicron 35mm - someone said it almost looks like a photo from the 50s - and I should Photoshop out the people in the background:
10-26-2013, 01:12 PM   #55
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Oh, and this is one of my friends shooting with her Pentax and A50mm lens:
10-26-2013, 04:15 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
I have taken photos that would have been difficult with a DSLR with my mirror-less cameras.
Difficult - but not impossible, there is a difference. It is true I work with a considerable amount of mirrorless cameras my Leica cameras and view cameras are completely mirrorless* but save for the view cameras and their camera movements my Leica M cameras don't really change the kind of photographs I can get these days.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
I can shoot all day on one battery, unless I am using the flash a lot. I do usually carry an extra battery, just in case, but it's about the size of a key FOB
The Size of a key fob you say? No wonder they run flat so quickly - I would rather have a bigger higher capacity battery than a smaller one. Keeping tabs on multiple batteries - which ones are freshly charged, which ones need to be charged and how many charging cycles they have been through can become a bit of a nightmare when you have to work with a camera that has sub-par battery life.


* Imagine the mirror in a 4X5 or an 8X10 view camera, the mirror slap on those would sound like the crack of doom.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-26-2013 at 04:25 PM.
10-26-2013, 04:23 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
and lots of mirrorless
Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough, for mirrorless or Pentaxians.

I found my trip to the IFR a bit un-productive, photographically. I just couldn't get into the groove, hardly took any photos at the main events, and didn't do my usual exploring-the-city-with-camera. Something about all those crowds spooked me. I lost my mojo.

The extremely high density of photographers/metre2 may have contributed. At the IFR, everyone had a camera, and every single atom around the place was being photographed by someone. One the same day and in the same place probably 20,000 people were taking the same photos of the same subject as I was. All the subjects before me were already photographed to death and exhausted. What could I add? I felt redundant. And normally I like to consider myself a special artistic snowflake when out photographing. But seeing every man and their dog with a camera made it clear to me that in the grand photographic scheme of things I was just another ant. I had an existential moment.

Luckily that's all behind me now.
10-26-2013, 04:53 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Difficult - but not impossible, there is a difference. It is true I work with a considerable amount of mirrorless cameras my Leica cameras and view cameras are completely mirrorless* but save for the view cameras and their camera movements my Leica M cameras don't really change the kind of photographs I can get these days.
It's more the flip screen and the small size that lets me do some things easier with a mirrorless. Some DSLRs do have flip screens, but they are hard to one hand during some situations.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Keeping tabs on multiple batteries - which ones are freshly charged, which ones need to be charged and how many charging cycles they have been through can become a bit of a nightmare when you have to work with a camera that has sub-par battery life.
The only company that has really amazed me, regarding battery life, in my personal experience, is Nikon. My D600 seems to last forever. Sure, I'd love a bigger battery; but that's not a mirror-less problem, it's a Sony decision. Nikon stuck an EN-EL15 in the Nikon 1 V1.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Yesterday I went to the Sculpture by the Sea exhibition and took over 600 photos on my NEX6 - on one battery. That's about normal for me.

During the International Fleet Review (the same event that rawr was referring to) I attended Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photowalk with a group of photographers. In that group, there were only two Pentaxians (both of them are friends of mine). Otherwise it was a Canikonian DSLR group. In terms of people outside our group, I saw plenty of mobile phones used as cameras, and lots of mirrorless.

I took this with my NEX6 and Summicron 35mm - someone said it almost looks like a photo from the 50s - and I should Photoshop out the people in the background:
That's better than me. I probably get about 400 - 450 with no flash use. Do you turn off the LCD? Awesome picture by the way.
10-26-2013, 05:06 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote

I found my trip to the IFR a bit un-productive, photographically. I just couldn't get into the groove, hardly took any photos at the main events, and didn't do my usual exploring-the-city-with-camera. Something about all those crowds spooked me. I lost my mojo.
I'm sorry to hear that.

I had the opposite experience. I wasn't expecting to take any photos - I was out cycling in the morning, and was very tired that day. I went to the photowalk thinking I'll be lucky to get one shot - it was more an opportunity to catch up with friends.

I ended up with some photos I really liked.

Having fun at Pitt St mall:


The guy in the foreground is Michael Sutton (yes *the* Michael Sutton) trying out his new Nikon D600:


The sound of two hands clapping? (Note: there actually was no sound - but the Rode video mic attached to the camera gives the impression she was videoing):


Spotted at Pitt St mall:


Yes, it is the mobile phone generation (Note I deliberately focused midway between the three phone users so that they are all slightly defocused - this would have been a shot that would not have been easy for a DSLR with AF to achieve):


Hello sailor:


This looks like he is taking a self portrait but he isn't - I am amazed the reflection on the marble came out so well:


Martin Place was actually really busy, but the photo makes it look like he is alone:

Last edited by Christine Tham; 10-26-2013 at 05:12 PM.
10-26-2013, 05:16 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
...
this would have been a shot that would not have been easy for a DSLR with AF to achieve):
I'm totally dumbfounded by that. A DSLR can take a blurry picture as well as any other camera.
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