Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-27-2013, 06:31 AM   #106
Veteran Member
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,375
Technique is the servant, not the master. Look at the work of the great photographers. Plenty of pictures there which aren't very sharp, sometimes downright blurry, overcooked highlights, all the rest. But the power of what they saw and how they framed it blows everything away. Best to consider first whether it's a great image which moves you. I don't think the rest really matters by comparison. This is why so much of the evaluation of photography I've read on the net is mistaken and petty-minded. It comes from gearheads. Artists on the one hand and the ordinary viewer on the other will see what's really there much more clearly, imho.

I don't think saying that DSLRs can be big, absurdly cumbersome beasts is just MILC propaganda. Of course it's used like that, but it happens to be true very often. People want smaller cameras without compromising on image quality. The camera-makers know that if they provide smaller cameras and do compromise on image quality, then smartphones and tablets will eat their breakfast for them. So it's up to the camera-makers to deliver. Perhaps a question is whether "R&D Japan, Inc." is still capable of responding to the challenge or whether other societies with a fuller, fresher generation of engineers - China, North America, e.g. - will do it better. The new Ricoh GR seems to be bang on the money here. That is a real photographer's camera which isn't too large or compromised on quality. Now (imho) they just need to extend the idea to other focal lengths and, if poss, FF.

10-27-2013, 07:29 AM   #107
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
When all you have to do is to keep the shutter release button half-pressed and twist just a little the focus ring, the SLR is not an "absurdly cumbersome beast" - you're just trying to use it as if it were a smartphone or something.

A small camera can be cumbersome as well; yet people are educated into a certain way of thinking. You're talking about the work of the great photographers, but their style of working - is it closer to the point&shoot way of life? Prefocusing, for example, that's easily done with a DSLR, with lenses having a distance scale. Yet I don't see a distance scale on the new Sony Zeiss FE lenses.
Cameras, lenses, even technique are just tools, I agree; but do we know how to choose better tools, or we're just falling for hype?
10-27-2013, 07:50 AM - 1 Like   #108
Veteran Member
Nesster's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NJ USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 13,072
Here I use my NEX in the correct way: B-L Tessar ic (circa WW I) -> Miranda screw/bayonet adapter -> velcro+tape -> 3 piece ext tube Nikon F mount -> Nikon PB-4 Bellows -> Nikon F to M42 adapter -> M42 to Canon FD adapter -> tilting Nex adapter -> Nex C3
I forgot to take a picture of the set up before I disassembled it. Inspired by <a href="http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/10/the-first-annual-photogeek-geek-photo-contest" rel="nofollow">www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/10/the-first-annual-photoge...</a>






Compare this to a doomed D600 with AF-D 85/1.8 lens:



I could have taken all the photos with either camera. But so far, not with any auto everything compact/phone thing. This means to me that Nikon and Sony are not DOOMED, only some of their cameras are
10-27-2013, 08:50 AM   #109
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,237
Don't reward fiction

QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
What's with all the un-chivalrous behavior? Whether you like the shot or not, or you see any value in the method for this shot, she saw something in it. A last minute change can still be intentional. Photographers have to think fast. She has shared many great photos on this forum. Why do you need to call her a liar? I thought we were a bit more polite on this forum.
Straight-up BS doesn't deserve chivalry. The story changed, and one version of it is in such direct and obvious contradiction to the other version, it's ridiculous. ("A story about people being de-focused." - c'mon.) This poster has a history of subtle fictions, others have called it out in this thread and elsewhere at different times... albeit less directly than me.

I guess if I didn't care about this forum, I would have let it slide. Everyone should tell the truth. Embellishment, excuses, things like that bring no value to a forum. The truth is always good enough, and is what deserves respect. Just a simple rule to live by.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
It's about a blurry image of three people on their mobile phones which is supposed to depict how disconnected we all are from each other - or something like that... . You know, that old chestnut.
QuoteOriginally posted by prime.partisan Quote
It's about people being so "defocused" about the end of Nikon they rather discuss something entirely different. Like, how focus peaking helps to focus on nothing. Or how a blurry picture can be like Schrodinger's cat. Nobody knows if it's deliberate or a mistake, or both. Or maybe it's all just BS.
.


Last edited by jsherman999; 10-27-2013 at 09:03 AM.
10-27-2013, 12:05 PM   #110
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southern California
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,082
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Straight-up BS doesn't deserve chivalry. The story changed, and one version of it is in such direct and obvious contradiction to the other version, it's ridiculous. ("A story about people being de-focused." - c'mon.) This poster has a history of subtle fictions, others have called it out in this thread and elsewhere at different times... albeit less directly than me.

I guess if I didn't care about this forum, I would have let it slide. Everyone should tell the truth. Embellishment, excuses, things like that bring no value to a forum. The truth is always good enough, and is what deserves respect. Just a simple rule to live by.




.
Reward what? I did single you out because you're the only one that called her a liar. You would have been justified in saying that you didn't like the image, you don't think the message was conveyed as she intended or offered other methods of easily reproducing the image without focus peaking and MF, etc. Christine even said that the image might not have worked. In my experience, Christine has always been a positive and contributing member of the forum. She offers advice, constructive criticism and posts some excellent photos; I think she adds value. Not every image is going to be a hit. Others are able to disagree with her, and she should be able to defend her statements; but calling people liars and bullying them adds no value.

Last edited by kenafein; 10-27-2013 at 01:30 PM.
10-27-2013, 01:40 PM   #111
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southern California
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,082
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
When all you have to do is to keep the shutter release button half-pressed and twist just a little the focus ring, the SLR is not an "absurdly cumbersome beast" - you're just trying to use it as if it were a smartphone or something.

A small camera can be cumbersome as well; yet people are educated into a certain way of thinking. You're talking about the work of the great photographers, but their style of working - is it closer to the point&shoot way of life? Prefocusing, for example, that's easily done with a DSLR, with lenses having a distance scale. Yet I don't see a distance scale on the new Sony Zeiss FE lenses.
Cameras, lenses, even technique are just tools, I agree; but do we know how to choose better tools, or we're just falling for hype?
The distance scale is the worst omission from the Sony NEX lenses. The Fuji will at least display the distance on the LCD. Christine's lens of choice, however, did have a distance scale. As I mentioned before, just about any shot can be taken by a DSLR, but sometimes it's a bit easier on a mirrorless, and vice versa. I have both types of cameras. My D600 with Grip and my 100-300/4 is a cumbersome beast, but I wouldn't want to shoot that huge lens on my NEX, and they don't have anything that matches the quality in a smaller size. However, I can walk around all day at the zoo, with my daughter on my shoulders, and take pictures, one handed, with the NEX and my 55-210 lens. There's room for both types of cameras.
10-27-2013, 01:49 PM   #112
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 27,572
Maybe I'm foolish, but I don't think there is that much difference in size between a K5 (without the grip) with the 55-300 attached and a NEX with the equivalent lens on board. However, I find it easier to use such a lens with an SLR-type form factor and in body image stabilization helps in most situations as well and tends to shrink the size of the lens as compared to such a lens for a camera without it.

SLRs can have tilt screens as well, which kind of defeats the whole argument about whether it is easier to compose with an SLR or a mirrorless camera. That said, I have to say that composition at arms length tend to induce blur and I know that unless I am careful to be stabilized, my rate of keepers goes down shooting in such a manner as compared to holding a camera to my eye, whatever viewfinder type it has.

10-27-2013, 02:07 PM   #113
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,913
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
composition at arms length tend to induce blur
Unless that 'arms length' also means holding the camera down at waist level, TLS style, or crouching down and letting the camera body rest on your knee or thigh while framing the shot from above.

With it's flippy rear LCD I've gotten many rock solid NEX shots doing arms length that way, in a manner that just isn't practical with a regular viewfinder.

DSLR's with flippy screens can also work the same way of course (except those which implement flippy screens on a side pivot, which can make framing a bit more awkward).
10-27-2013, 02:09 PM   #114
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southern California
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,082
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe I'm foolish, but I don't think there is that much difference in size between a K5 (without the grip) with the 55-300 attached and a NEX with the equivalent lens on board. However, I find it easier to use such a lens with an SLR-type form factor and in body image stabilization helps in most situations as well and tends to shrink the size of the lens as compared to such a lens for a camera without it.

SLRs can have tilt screens as well, which kind of defeats the whole argument about whether it is easier to compose with an SLR or a mirrorless camera. That said, I have to say that composition at arms length tend to induce blur and I know that unless I am careful to be stabilized, my rate of keepers goes down shooting in such a manner as compared to holding a camera to my eye, whatever viewfinder type it has.
That's fine if it works for you. There is no real equivalents, but the NEX 5N and the 55-210(Lens stabilized) weigh substantially less than the K-5 alone. I do see it as an advantage in many cases. Use what works for you. People on this site are constantly telling me that my D600 is too big and cumbersome vs a Pentax camera, but I don't think that's true at all. I see it as an advantage, personally, to have cameras at both ends of the spectrum. In my Zoo example, with my daughter on my shoulders, I took some pretty good shots, with the lens stabilization, but it was a choice of getting the shot or not taking any at all(for me).
10-27-2013, 02:20 PM   #115
Veteran Member
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
Thanks for sharing street photos Christine and Digitalis. This one taken with Nex 6, but i could have taken it as easily with DSLR.

I think one advantage of smaller cameras is they attract less attention. Altho this photo is not an example of that


Last edited by philbaum; 10-27-2013 at 02:31 PM.
10-27-2013, 02:26 PM   #116
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
kenafein:
I'm not aware of any Sony NEX lens with distance scale, though Olympus managed to put it on some of their focus by wire lenses. The point is - that's more like an exception on the MILC world, rather than the rule. You're losing things, in the name of "progress".

It's funny that you're comparing the D600 with grip and a large high quality 100-300 f/4, with some cheesy NEX and a mediocre (at best) slow zoom. You're actually using the Nikon with a grip because it balances better with that lens, I presume? Something the NEX just won't be able to do. OTOH, you can get much lighter and much smaller with a DSLR; for example, a K-5 with a 50-200 would have about the same length as your NEX. It would still be heavier and larger in other dimensions, that's true, but:
- it has a proper viewfinder vs. none
- it's IMHO much more comfortable to hold, due to a proper grip
- it has more accessible controls.
I'd say it's not a clear-cut win for the MILCs, but mostly depends on your preferences.
10-27-2013, 03:08 PM   #117
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southern California
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,082
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
kenafein:
I'm not aware of any Sony NEX lens with distance scale, though Olympus managed to put it on some of their focus by wire lenses. The point is - that's more like an exception on the MILC world, rather than the rule. You're losing things, in the name of "progress".

It's funny that you're comparing the D600 with grip and a large high quality 100-300 f/4, with some cheesy NEX and a mediocre (at best) slow zoom. You're actually using the Nikon with a grip because it balances better with that lens, I presume? Something the NEX just won't be able to do. OTOH, you can get much lighter and much smaller with a DSLR; for example, a K-5 with a 50-200 would have about the same length as your NEX. It would still be heavier and larger in other dimensions, that's true, but:
- it has a proper viewfinder vs. none
- it's IMHO much more comfortable to hold, due to a proper grip
- it has more accessible controls.
I'd say it's not a clear-cut win for the MILCs, but mostly depends on your preferences.
Christine was using an adapted Leica lens. It has a distance scale. I stated that the loss of the distance scale, on native lenses, is a frustrating omission. Focus peaking helps a bit, but it's not perfect. I have a NEX6, with a viewfinder that is arguably superior to that of the K-5, and which has a few more controls than my 5N. The NEX7 and the Fuji cameras one up it on controls. The 55-210 is a surprisingly good lens, easily besting the DA50-200, and it compares favorably with the 55-300. I find the NEX grip very comfortable for small and even large lenses. I couldn't access many of the Pentax controls one handed. I can access almost everything, that's available, on the NEX, without losing my grip. Live view focus on the K-5 was really bad. The NEX6 has superior tracking focus to the K-5 and essentially the same sensor. If only they'd hired Pentax to get them that extra stop of dynamic range and made it a 14bit raw, you'd have one nearly unbeatable tiny camera. As I've said, I think each cameras have their uses, and as you've said everyone has their own preferences. I do think that mirrorless will win out, and not necessarily small mirrorless, because it's cheaper to make. Sony is poised to push a whole line of DSLR sized and styled mirrorless cameras and Canon's new dual Pixel AF is supposedly revolutionary. In the end, I think camera companies are going to stuff them down our throats whether we want them or not.
10-27-2013, 03:22 PM   #118
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southern California
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,082
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Thanks for sharing street photos Christine and Digitalis. This one taken with Nex 6, but i could have taken it as easily with DSLR.

I think one advantage of smaller cameras is they attract less attention. Altho this photo is not an example of that
i like the jogger in the background, makes the shot.
10-27-2013, 04:33 PM   #119
Veteran Member
Christine Tham's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,269
QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
Christine was using an adapted Leica lens. It has a distance scale. I stated that the loss of the distance scale, on native lenses, is a frustrating omission.
Yes I was, on those photos. However, I have to confess I never use the distance markings, nor the DOF markings. To be honest, I don't really trust them, especially after coupling the lens to an adapter. I know on one of my lenses, the distance markings are inaccurate - probably because it's an old Summaron 35 with the "eyes" (rangefinder adjuster) but someone has taken out the eyes so it sits a bit closer and focuses past infinity.

I don't find the omission of distance markings on native E mount lenses troubling, but I find the fly by wire manual focusing irritating - in fact I give up unless it was for fine tuning.

Speaking of Nikon, I was an initial fan of the Nikon 1 series. I nearly bought a Nikon V2 this year, but then I discovered the sensor quality wasn't very good. I keep hoping Nikon will release a V3 with a better sensor this year, but they seem to be very quiet this year.
10-27-2013, 05:11 PM   #120
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 11,694
QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
to be honest, I don't really trust them, especially after coupling the lens to an adapter. I know on one of my lenses, the distance markings are inaccurate - probably because it's an old Summaron 35
If you were using the Summicron 35mm f/2 on a Leica M camera you would see how accurate those marking are - and in any case they are designed as a guide. The DOF scales engraved on lenses aren't an absolute indicator of DOF. All those DOF markings indicate that if you print at a certain size* then at certain apertures subjects at certain distances from the point of immediate focus will be out of focus by such a small amount that they will appear to be in focus enough for your purposes. Typically I find that some lens makers are a bit optimistic about the DOF scales they engrave on their lens - Mamiya is consistently off by one stop, Zeiss and Leica are very accurate**, Pentax has always been rather conservative, Nikon and Canon both are a bit hit-and-miss with their older lenses, though their RF lenses are generally right on the money.


*for instance a common 4X6 inch print
**though this depends on whether you are using a poor quality adapter which may introduce inaccuracies with the mount flange, which is most likely the case since your lens is focusing past infinity.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-27-2013 at 06:01 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
canon, nikon, printers
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Landscape End of Summer GeoJerry Post Your Photos! 5 09-19-2013 04:29 PM
The End of an Era: Steve McCurry and the Final Roll of Kodachrome Film bigdog104 Photographic Industry and Professionals 11 01-16-2013 05:24 PM
Ca-Nikon to stop making crop sensor higher end cams psychdoc Photographic Industry and Professionals 14 12-10-2012 11:15 AM
Travel End of theTrail Bob Harris Post Your Photos! 18 10-16-2012 06:08 PM
End of viruses?? jeffkrol General Talk 6 11-05-2011 06:27 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:11 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top