End of Nikon?

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by tuco

Perhaps if you don't assume your experience translates to other people's ability to use their camera, you might not come to such sweeping generalizations.

Still looking forward to your shot.

I originally said "this would have been a shot that would not have been easy for a DSLR with AF to achieve" - not exactly sure how this is an assumption that my "experience translates to other people's ability to use their camera".

Clearly, you have the ability to use your DSLR to select a focus point that focuses on empty space. And someone else has the ability to change from AF to MF mode "in a split second."

You are right. I do not have these abilities. My bad.

kenafein · 10-26-2013, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

That's exactly what I did. Used focus peaking to focus between the 3 people. On a DSLR it would have been a nightmare trying to find an appropriate focus point, or to switch to manual focus and rely on instinct. Often, DSLR lenses also have long focusing movement so I wouldn't have been able to manually focus in time.

If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method. Also, shooting with an EVF, or an LCD, stopped to the specific F-stop, will show the actual blur and image you would record. A DSLR would not show the correct DOF through the viewfinder.

bossa · 10-26-2013, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

Yesterday I went to the Sculpture by the Sea exhibition and took over 600 photos on my NEX6 - on one battery. That's about normal for me.

During the International Fleet Review (the same event that rawr was referring to) I attended Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photowalk with a group of photographers. In that group, there were only two Pentaxians (both of them are friends of mine). Otherwise it was a Canikonian DSLR group. In terms of people outside our group, I saw plenty of mobile phones used as cameras, and lots of mirrorless.

I took this with my NEX6 and Summicron 35mm - someone said it almost looks like a photo from the 50s - and I should Photoshop out the people in the background:

Photoshopping "out" the people in the background would cause this picture to lose all human scale references and I feel that it would lose a lot if that were done.

NickLarsson · 10-26-2013, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by kenafein

If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method. Also, shooting with an EVF, or an LCD, stopped to the specific F-stop, will show the actual blur and image you would record. A DSLR would not show the correct DOF through the viewfinder.

DSLRs have focus peaking too, it's not a MILC exclusivity.

bossa · 10-26-2013, 06:34 PM

Is this the shot in question?

A DSLR could have focused on the seat between the people, or even on the grill at ground level next to the seat, and then the shot recomposed to achieve what you have done here. Or focus on the girl and do a manual tweak? But I would have rather had the girl in focus to be honest which I'm sure a DSLR could have done that pretty well.

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by kenafein

If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method.

That would have been valid, if I had known in advance the girl was going to sit down, check her phone, and left moments later. And I have premeditated the exact shot I wanted to take.

What actually happened was - I was actually trying to take a completely different photo. When the girl sat down, my immediate thought was to take a photo of her. I then realised I could not focus in time, started panicking and decided to focus peak in the zone. She then upped and left.

I took several photos, didn't think any of them would be usable, but this one I liked.

Now, if I had a DSLR, I would have locked focus on the girl, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, the end result would have been a rather different picture - not sure I would have picked that one.

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by bossa

A DSLR could have focused on the seat between the people, or even on the grill at ground level next to the seat, and then the shot recomposed to achieve what you have done here.

That's assuming the DSLR focus point was in that zone, or it was in centre AF mode and there was enough in the grill to lock the AF (I don't think there would enough in the seat - the AF point would more likely zero in on the white plastic bag (assuming PDAF of course).

Could have, but would have? Of course, my "lack of ability and experience" compared to other people probably could have done ...

Focusing on the girl? Yeah that was my first reaction. I took several shots in burst mode - one of them had her in focus, but on reflection I didn't want it. It wasn't exactly the message or the look I wanted.

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by bossa

Photoshopping "out" the people in the background would cause this picture to lose all human scale references and I feel that it would lose a lot if that were done.

Thank you - I kind of agree, but I also get the point of the suggestion to wipe the people in the background out.

kenafein · 10-26-2013, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by NickLarsson

DSLRs have focus peaking too, it's not a MILC exclusivity.

I am aware, however, not many and switching to live view and possibly having to switch to manual on top of that would have lost her the shot. So many of our shots are serendipitous. Sometimes the settings on the camera, your reflexes and the moment all align. Focus peaking with a NEX and a small prime is pretty flexible, but it is not perfect for catching every shot either.

rawr · 10-26-2013, 06:51 PM

My shameful point-and-shoot history is showing, I guess, but my preference with that pic would have been deep DOF and everything in focus.

The story in the image would be slightly changed, as would the atmosphere, but not by much.

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by rawr

The story in the image would be slightly changed, as would the atmosphere, but not by much.

To me that would be an entirely different story.

I wanted to tell a story about three people with mobile phones, all engrossed in them and therefore "defocused" from the world around them. Choosing a picture where the focus was in the middle was trying to convey the conversation between them that they never had but could have.

Clearly I am not telling the story well enough and my photo is not good enough to convey the story. My bad. If I was staging this photo rather than taking it by accident, I think I would have tried to convey the message of the focus point being in the centre more strongly.

Thinking it through, I think the girl was close enough in focus and taking up so much of the picture our eyes are naturally drawn to her.

So - bottom line, bad composition.

tuco · 10-26-2013, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

Still looking forward to your shot.

Shot of what? A burry picture?

Perhaps a shot that give a person a focus point will do.

bossa · 10-26-2013, 07:23 PM

I understand the need for the three people to be OOF and I feel the shot could be set up to go even further. Have them all facing away from a central point (the way they are is fine though) where something obvious (and maybe important) is happening, that they are blissfully unaware from.

People texting all day on phones probably don't know what the real world actually looks like, and, if they noticed it at all, it would be a novelty for them to say the least.

A super fast lens, to isolate the central point and make them even more blurred, would be very cool.

PS: I've got it.. a naked person standing between them or someone on fire ..

sorry, I'm getting a bit carried away.

Christine Tham · 10-26-2013, 07:36 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by bossa

I understand the need for the three people to be OOF and I feel the shot could be set up to go even further. Have them all facing away from a central point (the way they are is fine though) where something obvious (and maybe important) is happening, that they are blissfully unaware from.

People texting all day on phones probably don't know what the real world actually looks like, and, if they noticed it at all, it would be a novelty for them to say the least.

A super fast lens, to isolate the central point and make them even more blurred, would be very cool.

Yeah, I have been wondering what the result would have been if I had my Nokton 35mm f1.2 at the time.

But they don't really need to be out of focus - just distracted. This is another photo with a similar theme, taken on the RX100 on a different photo walk:

Again - not perfect - contemplating photoshopping out the third woman in the background, except I like her shoes.

BrianR · 10-26-2013, 07:55 PM

Isn't that shot what Quick Shift Focus is for? Lock focus on the girl in front, give it touch to move the focus back, shoot.

What about the mirrorless camera made it easier? This is an honest question, I've never used a live view camera outside of an old P&S.

Originally posted by Christine Tham

And if you habitually leave the camera in manual focus, well, you not really using it as a DSLR, are you?

DSLR use implies you have to use auto-focus? I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this.

Back on topic- While both are doomed, Nikon will meet it's doom before Pentax does. Bwahhaha.

10-26-2013, 06:49 PM	#84
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Originally posted by NickLarsson DSLRs have focus peaking too, it's not a MILC exclusivity. I am aware, however, not many and switching to live view and possibly having to switch to manual on top of that would have lost her the shot. So many of our shots are serendipitous. Sometimes the settings on the camera, your reflexes and the moment all align. Focus peaking with a NEX and a small prime is pretty flexible, but it is not perfect for catching every shot either. Last edited by kenafein; 10-26-2013 at 07:03 PM.

10-26-2013, 07:23 PM	#88
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	I understand the need for the three people to be OOF and I feel the shot could be set up to go even further. Have them all facing away from a central point (the way they are is fine though) where something obvious (and maybe important) is happening, that they are blissfully unaware from. People texting all day on phones probably don't know what the real world actually looks like, and, if they noticed it at all, it would be a novelty for them to say the least. A super fast lens, to isolate the central point and make them even more blurred, would be very cool. PS: I've got it.. a naked person standing between them or someone on fire .. sorry, I'm getting a bit carried away. Last edited by bossa; 10-26-2013 at 07:28 PM.

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10-26-2013, 06:01 PM	#76
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by tuco Perhaps if you don't assume your experience translates to other people's ability to use their camera, you might not come to such sweeping generalizations. Still looking forward to your shot. I originally said "this would have been a shot that would not have been easy for a DSLR with AF to achieve" - not exactly sure how this is an assumption that my "experience translates to other people's ability to use their camera". Clearly, you have the ability to use your DSLR to select a focus point that focuses on empty space. And someone else has the ability to change from AF to MF mode "in a split second." You are right. I do not have these abilities. My bad.

10-26-2013, 06:14 PM	#77
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Originally posted by Christine Tham That's exactly what I did. Used focus peaking to focus between the 3 people. On a DSLR it would have been a nightmare trying to find an appropriate focus point, or to switch to manual focus and rely on instinct. Often, DSLR lenses also have long focusing movement so I wouldn't have been able to manually focus in time. If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method. Also, shooting with an EVF, or an LCD, stopped to the specific F-stop, will show the actual blur and image you would record. A DSLR would not show the correct DOF through the viewfinder.

10-26-2013, 06:15 PM	#78
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Originally posted by Christine Tham Yesterday I went to the Sculpture by the Sea exhibition and took over 600 photos on my NEX6 - on one battery. That's about normal for me. During the International Fleet Review (the same event that rawr was referring to) I attended Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photowalk with a group of photographers. In that group, there were only two Pentaxians (both of them are friends of mine). Otherwise it was a Canikonian DSLR group. In terms of people outside our group, I saw plenty of mobile phones used as cameras, and lots of mirrorless. I took this with my NEX6 and Summicron 35mm - someone said it almost looks like a photo from the 50s - and I should Photoshop out the people in the background: Photoshopping "out" the people in the background would cause this picture to lose all human scale references and I feel that it would lose a lot if that were done.

10-26-2013, 06:25 PM	#79
NickLarsson Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,390	Originally posted by kenafein If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method. Also, shooting with an EVF, or an LCD, stopped to the specific F-stop, will show the actual blur and image you would record. A DSLR would not show the correct DOF through the viewfinder. DSLRs have focus peaking too, it's not a MILC exclusivity.

10-26-2013, 06:34 PM	#80
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	Is this the shot in question? A DSLR could have focused on the seat between the people, or even on the grill at ground level next to the seat, and then the shot recomposed to achieve what you have done here. Or focus on the girl and do a manual tweak? But I would have rather had the girl in focus to be honest which I'm sure a DSLR could have done that pretty well.

10-26-2013, 06:34 PM	#81
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by kenafein If I'd been using an DSLR, with AF, I would have center focused a bit ahead of the guy on the right and then recomposed. It wouldn't have been as precise as the focus peaking method. That would have been valid, if I had known in advance the girl was going to sit down, check her phone, and left moments later. And I have premeditated the exact shot I wanted to take. What actually happened was - I was actually trying to take a completely different photo. When the girl sat down, my immediate thought was to take a photo of her. I then realised I could not focus in time, started panicking and decided to focus peak in the zone. She then upped and left. I took several photos, didn't think any of them would be usable, but this one I liked. Now, if I had a DSLR, I would have locked focus on the girl, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, the end result would have been a rather different picture - not sure I would have picked that one.

10-26-2013, 06:41 PM	#82
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by bossa A DSLR could have focused on the seat between the people, or even on the grill at ground level next to the seat, and then the shot recomposed to achieve what you have done here. That's assuming the DSLR focus point was in that zone, or it was in centre AF mode and there was enough in the grill to lock the AF (I don't think there would enough in the seat - the AF point would more likely zero in on the white plastic bag (assuming PDAF of course). Could have, but would have? Of course, my "lack of ability and experience" compared to other people probably could have done ... Focusing on the girl? Yeah that was my first reaction. I took several shots in burst mode - one of them had her in focus, but on reflection I didn't want it. It wasn't exactly the message or the look I wanted.

10-26-2013, 06:48 PM	#83
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by bossa Photoshopping "out" the people in the background would cause this picture to lose all human scale references and I feel that it would lose a lot if that were done. Thank you - I kind of agree, but I also get the point of the suggestion to wipe the people in the background out.

10-26-2013, 06:51 PM	#85
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	My shameful point-and-shoot history is showing, I guess, but my preference with that pic would have been deep DOF and everything in focus. The story in the image would be slightly changed, as would the atmosphere, but not by much.

10-26-2013, 07:00 PM	#86
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by rawr The story in the image would be slightly changed, as would the atmosphere, but not by much. To me that would be an entirely different story. I wanted to tell a story about three people with mobile phones, all engrossed in them and therefore "defocused" from the world around them. Choosing a picture where the focus was in the middle was trying to convey the conversation between them that they never had but could have. Clearly I am not telling the story well enough and my photo is not good enough to convey the story. My bad. If I was staging this photo rather than taking it by accident, I think I would have tried to convey the message of the focus point being in the centre more strongly. Thinking it through, I think the girl was close enough in focus and taking up so much of the picture our eyes are naturally drawn to her. So - bottom line, bad composition.

10-26-2013, 07:17 PM	#87
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by Christine Tham Still looking forward to your shot. Shot of what? A burry picture? Perhaps a shot that give a person a focus point will do.

10-26-2013, 07:36 PM - 1 Like	#89
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by bossa I understand the need for the three people to be OOF and I feel the shot could be set up to go even further. Have them all facing away from a central point (the way they are is fine though) where something obvious (and maybe important) is happening, that they are blissfully unaware from. People texting all day on phones probably don't know what the real world actually looks like, and, if they noticed it at all, it would be a novelty for them to say the least. A super fast lens, to isolate the central point and make them even more blurred, would be very cool. Yeah, I have been wondering what the result would have been if I had my Nokton 35mm f1.2 at the time. But they don't really need to be out of focus - just distracted. This is another photo with a similar theme, taken on the RX100 on a different photo walk: Again - not perfect - contemplating photoshopping out the third woman in the background, except I like her shoes.

10-26-2013, 07:55 PM	#90
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Isn't that shot what Quick Shift Focus is for? Lock focus on the girl in front, give it touch to move the focus back, shoot. What about the mirrorless camera made it easier? This is an honest question, I've never used a live view camera outside of an old P&S. Originally posted by Christine Tham And if you habitually leave the camera in manual focus, well, you not really using it as a DSLR, are you? DSLR use implies you have to use auto-focus? I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this. Back on topic- While both are doomed, Nikon will meet it's doom before Pentax does. Bwahhaha.