[uhoh7]

I hate that our industry is so lame it needs Sony to show the way.

[Winder]

I hate that our industry is so lame it needs Sony to show the way.

Sony is only doing by accident.

[reeftool]

Sony is only doing by accident.

Maybe, but most of the new innovation the past few years has been coming from large electronics companies that have decided to jump into the photography business. Consumer electronics is extremely competitive and cutthroat and it appears that Sony, Panasonic, and Samsung are developing products that the older and more conservative camera manufacturers are reluctant to build.

[boriscleto]

Sometime mid 2014?

And isn't there a little trade show in Germany around that time?

[normhead]

Maybe, but most of the new innovation the past few years has been coming from large electronics companies that have decided to jump into the photography business. Consumer electronics is extremely competitive and cutthroat and it appears that Sony, Panasonic, and Samsung are developing products that the older and more conservative camera manufacturers are reluctant to build.

Sony is willing to try different things to try and gain market share, but many of their new things don't catch on, and don't perform as well as more traditional designs in some aspects of their working. To me tying yourself to Sony is like paying for doing the market testing in all the Sony experiments. It's a good approach, and someone has to do it. I just don't want to be the guinea pig.

[Clavius]

Sony is only doing by accident.

That makes it even sadder. That Sony does a better job by accident then many dedicated camera makers are with their full dedication.

[normhead]

That makes it even sadder. That Sony does a better job by accident then many dedicated camera makers are with their full dedication.

In your opinion?

[Winder]

Maybe, but most of the new innovation the past few years has been coming from large electronics companies that have decided to jump into the photography business. Consumer electronics is extremely competitive and cutthroat and it appears that Sony, Panasonic, and Samsung are developing products that the older and more conservative camera manufacturers are reluctant to build.

This is true, but if you watch Sony they are kind of a train wreck when it comes to cameras.

The NEX line was designed for consumers who were moving up from P&S. That is why the lenses were so cheap and the menu system and controls so awful. That was the direction Sony thought the market was going. They had no idea there was demand from the upper markets for a compact ILC. Now they are forced to make the E-mount into a full frame mount and deal with the compromises that involves..... Sony miss judged the market.

Sony changed their lens road-map to focus on NEX because the misjudged demand and market direction.

The A900 was a great camera, but Sony (Who dominates HD Video & Broadcast video) totally missed the market shift to HD video and the 5DII and Canon ate Sony's proverbial lunch...... Sony missed the market....

SLT was the next "great technology" which lasted for exactly one generation in the FF line with the A99. Was this a bridge technology? Or did Sony miss again and assume people would be more accepting?

I was very close to selling my 5D and going to the A900, but Sony was like a leaf blowing in the wind. They had not direction. It took over a year for the first firmware patch to come out to fix the dozens of small problems with the A900 and rumors that Sony was going away from the OVF left a lot of people skeptical of Sony's commitment. A900 lasted one generation.

Now the rumor is that SLT is dead and there will be an A99 replacement very soon that will be completely mirrorless. A 36MP professional body will need at least 2 of the BIONZ X processors to handle high speed CDAF and hit anything close to 10fps.

I really wish Pentax had introduced a camera like the A7r with:
IBIS
DNG
Better ergonomics and build
A new FF mount and 5 new LTD lenses for it.

[Miguel]

I really wish Pentax had introduced a camera like the A7r with:
IBIS
DNG
Better ergonomics and build
A new FF mount and 5 new LTD lenses for it.

They may very well do this. By now I hope they would have assessed the risk in introducing a new mount. More importantly, garnering the manufacturing capacity for 5 new lenses with competitive performance technology, is a key milestone. Ricoh may have had to contract with one or more third parties to make these on time and within a certain price target. While the old FA LTD lenses are fondly remembered and had great optics, they are not modern enough for the FF product space.

I think five is the minimum number to ensure credibility--something Sony is lacking.

M

[mecrox]

Winder wrote: I really wish Pentax had introduced a camera like the A7r with:
IBIS
DNG
Better ergonomics and build
A new FF mount and 5 new LTD lenses for it.

They may very well do this. By now I hope they would have assessed the risk in introducing a new mount. More importantly, garnering the manufacturing capacity for 5 new lenses with competitive performance technology, is a key milestone. Ricoh may have had to contract with one or more third parties to make these on time and within a certain price target. While the old FA LTD lenses are fondly remembered and had great optics, they are not modern enough for the FF product space.

I think five is the minimum number to ensure credibility--something Sony is lacking.

M

Yes, these two posts rather put together what I'm hoping for. However, I think any new mount and camera could be Ricoh-branded, leaving Pentax to continue with APS-C and K-mount. But who knows. Standing still won't work and nor, quite likely, will trying to take on the big two on their own terms, i.e. with the same kind of camera that Canon and Nikon produce given their present lock on FF. That must be quite a factor in Sony's thinking. I wonder how far Ricoh have really got with FF, serious action as distinct from thinking about it. The next up for it is probably Fuji or Samsung and perhaps you don't want to be last to the party. The food will all have gone.

I don't really want to buy Sony, though. I just don't. I'd like a proper camera from a proper camera-maker which really means lens-maker. Same reason I'd be wary of Samsung. In some ways it would be simpler to be rich as Croesus. Then I could just buy Leica and forget about it. The Leica M Monochrom and a couple of good Leica lenses are to die for. Sigh.

[Miguel]

I wonder how far Ricoh have really got with FF, serious action as distinct from thinking about it.

My uneducated guess is that they have several working prototypes in a few predictable and surprising form factors. They will be assessing feedback and market data in response to Sony's model, forthcoming products from competitors, and K-3 sales. Not to be repetitive, but I would think that getting the lenses right and ready is the hardest part. Not just the component technology but securing manufacturing capacity. If they use a third party, getting manufacturing runs scheduled (in competition with other client's products) could be a factor alone. Being a new platform, I hope Ricoh will devote more time cycles for product testing--as we see with NIkon, releasing a flawed product sets you back significantly. For a newcomer to the FF space, I wonder how many passes Ricoh gets before their credibility is kaput.

M

[Christine Tham]

This is true, but if you watch Sony they are kind of a train wreck when it comes to cameras.

LOL - you make some really interesting points.

In the excitement surrounding the new cameras, people are perhaps overlooking that the Alpha line of DSLRs have been less than spectacular, SLT is a joke, Alpha lenses are big and expensive, the first generation NEX was truly awful, and it seems Sony/Zeiss are still struggling with creating compact full frame lenses.

Hybrid AF were introduced by Nikon (Nikon 1) and Canon (EOS M) long before Sony. The concept of mirrorless was pioneered by Panasonic and Olympus, Even Ricoh had focus peaking before Sony.

But the RX100 and RX1 showed Sony was capable of greatness. And Sony has managed to get a lot right with these new cameras. Is the A7 and A7r the "iPhone" of cameras? Who knows.

[Nesster]

It still is a tough road between the iPhone and the Canikon DSLR.

These Sonys ultimately have to stand on their own: is there enough EVF performance, are there the half-dozen lenses that make up 80% of the lens sales (i.e. most people end up buying) and enough interesting ones for the other 20% to give the enthusiasts something to enthuse about? And is FF mirrorless compelling when compared to, say an Olympus or Fuji set up on the smaller side, and a Canikon with 12,000 lenses having alphabet soup names on the larger?

The legacy lens and Pentax folks will cheer, but lets face it, we're not exactly the center of the market, are we If I didn't have the lens thing, I'd certainly be thinking the Oly and Fuji are hard to beat, on their own, as systems.

[mecrox]

My uneducated guess is that they have several working prototypes in a few predictable and surprising form factors. They will be assessing feedback and market data in response to Sony's model, forthcoming products from competitors, and K-3 sales. Not to be repetitive, but I would think that getting the lenses right and ready is the hardest part. Not just the component technology but securing manufacturing capacity. If they use a third party, getting manufacturing runs scheduled (in competition with other client's products) could be a factor alone. Being a new platform, I hope Ricoh will devote more time cycles for product testing--as we see with NIkon, releasing a flawed product sets you back significantly. For a newcomer to the FF space, I wonder how many passes Ricoh gets before their credibility is kaput.

M

Yes, that's a good way of putting it. As many folks often say, it all comes down to the glass. If you get that wrong then you haven't much of a hope and no one will respect you. Especially important for Ricoh and Pentax given the heritage of excellence in lens design they represent. Ricoh do seem to be pretty darn methodical, though. I think they are careful only to put out things they have checked thoroughly and will stand behind. So if/when they do FF, chances are high it will be a very thorough job whatever approach they take.

[reeftool]

This is true, but if you watch Sony they are kind of a train wreck when it comes to cameras.

The NEX line was designed for consumers who were moving up from P&S. That is why the lenses were so cheap and the menu system and controls so awful. That was the direction Sony thought the market was going. They had no idea there was demand from the upper markets for a compact ILC. Now they are forced to make the E-mount into a full frame mount and deal with the compromises that involves..... Sony miss judged the market.

Sony changed their lens road-map to focus on NEX because the misjudged demand and market direction.

The A900 was a great camera, but Sony (Who dominates HD Video & Broadcast video) totally missed the market shift to HD video and the 5DII and Canon ate Sony's proverbial lunch...... Sony missed the market....

SLT was the next "great technology" which lasted for exactly one generation in the FF line with the A99. Was this a bridge technology? Or did Sony miss again and assume people would be more accepting?

I was very close to selling my 5D and going to the A900, but Sony was like a leaf blowing in the wind. They had not direction. It took over a year for the first firmware patch to come out to fix the dozens of small problems with the A900 and rumors that Sony was going away from the OVF left a lot of people skeptical of Sony's commitment. A900 lasted one generation.

Now the rumor is that SLT is dead and there will be an A99 replacement very soon that will be completely mirrorless. A 36MP professional body will need at least 2 of the BIONZ X processors to handle high speed CDAF and hit anything close to 10fps.

I really wish Pentax had introduced a camera like the A7r with:
IBIS
DNG
Better ergonomics and build
A new FF mount and 5 new LTD lenses for it.

I agree mostly. Sony has some great innovation but is failing in the marketplace, mostly for the reasons you mention. If you read the financial news, Sony is in serious trouble and many consider the company's stock as a terrible investment. Are they going to be the next Kodak? Too bad.

We are still benefiting from Sony as our Pentax cameras and Nikon also are using Sony sensors or licensed sensors that are built by others. It's going to be interesting what develops from these cameras. Since they aren't in full production yet, there's a chance they may turn out to be real dogs. Still, it's going to be interesting to see where all this goes. Somebody is going to try to improve on this design.