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10-31-2013, 05:45 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Such a fast release cycle seems like a luxury-problem to Pentaxian eyes. Oly, Panny and Fuji's still have very exciting products though. Especially Fuji who is rumored to be working on a 135mm sensor format camera. They have to, because Sony is going in for the kill: Yes, there will be even cheaper and smaller Sony Full Frame E-mount cameras! | Mirrorless Rumors So, there will be FF cameras that are both cheaper and smaller then the A7. That means that the price of an FF camera will be moving into flagship APS-C DSLR pricing territory. In its turn moving APS-C flagships into the expensive M4/3 flagship category: "Nice, but why?" And the compactness of an APS-C DSLR will have no added value, because such an FF MILC with a pancake will be many times more compact.
To me, the sheer number of new models coming out from the camera industry is an extreme case of banging your head against the wall in order to cure a headache. Many of these models and pretty well all DSLRs are premised on the world of about 2005, before smartphones, tablets, social networking and the 99c app. It's not just that an awful lot of people don't need a DSLR to do what they want to do with photography these days, it's that the DSLR simply couldn't do what they'd want it to do anyway. No wifi, or wifi only as an expensive optional extra instead of a given, no apps, no gps, no in-camera software on a par with something like camera+ for the iPhone, hopelessly clunky and old-fashioned operating systems, no facility to do things which a 99c app can manage standing on its head, like sweep-mode panoramas - the list just goes on before one even gets to form factors and OVF vs EVF, tethering et al. I mean, dear, dear old Pentax is still in the era of clockwork lenses over some of its product range. Want wifi for your K3? Welcome to the Flu card, a costly add-on with a crap reputation: the kind of solution most sane people would run a mile from. Where I live Flu is something you get a vaccination for.

Yes, more new media things are coming in but in an achingly gradual and piecemeal fashion, and at least the new D5300 has a few more than most. TBH, I don't really have much faith in any of the camera-makers. "Japan Inc" has really blown this one, imho, having proved quite incapable of coming to terms with the new world of mobile and software coming from Silicon Valley and South Korea. The first camera-maker to give up head-banging and look at really redoing its whole approach to photography could do pretty well. Perhaps that is what has sparked some interest in the Sony A7; it's at least a big move in the right direction. What we've had over the past few years are format wars in which sensors and form factors have been imposed on the market regardless of whether they are appropriate to the customer's needs, which is looking through the wrong end of the telescope. The D5300 sounds a pretty good camera, in fact, but it's just continuing Japan Inc.'s habit of saying "You'll take what we give you" and so it's really just another illustration of the problem.


Last edited by mecrox; 10-31-2013 at 08:15 AM.
10-31-2013, 06:27 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not sure what you are arguing. Are you arguing that Nikon is dying? That Fuji and Sony are stealing business away from them? That the D5300, which will sell for 650 to 700 in a month or two, will be threatened by the a7, selling for 1700? Or, arguing that Nikon should actually release more cameras in the entry to mid level range to counter the onslaught of mirrorless cameras coming from all directions?

I understand the need to turn every thread into a full frame thread. But Nikon is a camera company that makes lots of full frame options and has a full line up of lenses for those full frame cameras, from very nice wide angles to super-telephoto. The A7 will not truly threaten Nikon until the glass is there for the e mount.

What I am saying is that Nikon has difficulty remaining flexible in the current market. They have to judge the market based on whatever tea leaves they read and then release a certain amount of full frame, mid level, and entry level cameras. But they haven't been selling enough of their old inventory before they release their next camera. This leads to discounting, which hurts the brand in multiple ways. Either making less inventory or, spacing out the release of cameras is the correction that is needed from Nikon's standpoint.

Ideally, you want 100 percent of the inventory of your old cameras sold within a month or two of releasing the replacement cameras. Otherwise you end up competing with yourself.
I'm just saying that as photography enthusiasts, we live in very exciting times. Complaining about the amount of new products being released is like complainging about a full glass... with three full beerkegs next to it.

There's currently so many excellent choices and many more choices are rumored to come in the near future. I would almost become reluctant to invest in any gear at all. Because the only risk to the consumer is pre-ordering something that gets improved upon before it's even delivered. Living example of this is the A7R. People who pre-ordered it are now facing the rumor that I posted earlier: that even smaller and cheaper cameras are on their way. That's a luxurious problem indeed.

Some people seem to worry about what this means to B&M store stock levels, consumer confusion, companies competing with themselves, etc. But I prefer to let those companies worry about that themselves. That's their job. All it says to me is that they're alive and kicking and that they are not afraid to compete. Apparently, those companies know their worth and are convinced that they can take the heat.

I hope this saying translates to English: "The kid that prefers to sit out the game on the side of the football field gets his way and gets picked last."
11-07-2013, 05:21 PM   #18
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Slow and steady tends to win the race.............Unless you think/believe in Nikon :P
11-09-2013, 09:02 AM   #19
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There have been concerns about market saturation in the photo industry overall. In the short term, all the new models will probably drive down prices some. Digital photography is still in it's infancy as a technology. It's only been a little over 10 years that the first DSLR's that were priced low enough that the average middle class enthusiast (and even many pros) could afford. What cost thousands 10 years ago is quite affordable today and the cheapest entry level camera today is far superior to the best and most expensive camera of a decade ago. I think that should make most of us pretty happy.

I think all the camera manufacturers have made their marketing strategy very clear. The camera body is a disposable electronic device that needs to be upgraded every couple of years. The big profit is getting more people to buy into their systems with lenses, flashes, etc. Lens prices continue to rise and all the manufacturers seem pretty intent on keeping those prices high. I think the next year or so is going to determine whether or not this strategy succeeds.

11-11-2013, 03:02 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pepe Le Pew Quote
Slow and steady tends to win the race.............Unless you think/believe in Nikon :P
Not in the camera world it doesn't - unless outdated models (which seems to be happening faster and faster) are your thing.

If you look at Nikon's policy it is currently based on keeping 'older' models current (5100-5300) (7000-7100)(800-800E) without having to completely redesign from the ground up. Those incremental improvements sell, the majority of non-forum, photography magazine-reading people buying a new camera just want the latest that features on the front of 'New Camera Monthly', not last year's model. So whilst the industry recovers from the Floods in Thailand and Tsunami in Japan this is a way to keep people interested and talking. Now where is that D400 ..........
11-28-2013, 06:30 PM   #21
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The D5200 came out this year..........
D5300 also came out this year......

Seriously? What was the whole point?
11-28-2013, 07:46 PM   #22
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The camera market (as opposed to smart phone cameras) has taken a dramatic downturn in volume. Whether thats because of market saturation, the lack of new features, changes in culture, or tanking of global economies or a combination of these, is open for discussion.

Nikon's plan for dealing with this downturn appears to be to continue with the same plan that got them to this point, i.e. emphasis on FF and minute iteration of existing aps models. Cutting warranty costs may be a part of that plan as complaints seem pretty loud on some forums.

Pentax seems to be taking a different approach in slowing down model announcements and taking more time to get them right - which implies a smaller, less costly staff size.

Sony's strategy is entirely different - they have invested on all sides of the marketplace: phones, large and compact cameras, with the proviso that all cameras will have EVF.

Its a tough marketplace, a declining one, for any mfr to be in.

11-28-2013, 08:24 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Nikon's plan for dealing with this downturn appears to be to continue with the same plan that got them to this point
So what was the point of coming out with D5300 when the D5200 both came out the same year............
11-28-2013, 08:26 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The camera market (as opposed to smart phone cameras) has taken a dramatic downturn in volume. Whether thats because of market saturation, the lack of new features, changes in culture, or tanking of global economies or a combination of these, is open for discussion.
People are Lazy.............
11-29-2013, 01:49 AM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pepe Le Pew Quote
People are Lazy.............
Camera manufacturers are lazy. (Too.)

Phones - and their cameras - are developing faster then dedicated cameras of any kind. At first, technology had to trickle down from cameras to smartphones. Then it started to trickle down from phones to camera instead. Now, the camera industry can't (or won't) even keep up with the phones anymore, and we're seeying technologies in phones that we would wish to have in cameras!

Think of the Nokia Truesense technology, how would that have worked out on an APS-C format camera? A 173mp camera would surely be talked about, no marketing needed there. And think of the 3 sensor "Ultrapixel" technology used by the HTC One to capture 300% more light. How would that work out in a bigger format and behind better glass? And think of Apple that does superresolution by rapidly snapping multiple pictures, without the user even knowing. Camera manufacturers are fighting a trench war, dug into the same trench for years, afraid to try anything out of the ordinary.

Not to mention software. Camera users beg, whine and hope for new firmwares from their lazy manufacturers that fixes this and does better that. While with phones people just build, share, sell and buy apps, most of which receive automatic updates weekly.

I'm glad that there are younger manufacturers like Sony and Sigma pioneering new things now. Imagine photography's future if they didn't.

Last edited by Clavius; 11-30-2013 at 04:24 AM.
01-21-2014, 07:20 PM   #26
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And now we have the D3300 (face palm)
01-22-2014, 11:01 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Camera manufacturers are lazy. (Too.)

Phones - and their cameras - are developing faster then dedicated cameras of any kind. At first, technology had to trickle down from cameras to smartphones. Then it started to trickle down from phones to camera instead. Now, the camera industry can't (or won't) even keep up with the phones anymore, and we're seeying technologies in phones that we would wish to have in cameras!

Think of the Nokia Truesense technology, how would that have worked out on an APS-C format camera? A 173mp camera would surely be talked about, no marketing needed there. And think of the 3 sensor "Ultrapixel" technology used by the HTC One to capture 300% more light. How would that work out in a bigger format and behind better glass? And think of Apple that does superresolution by rapidly snapping multiple pictures, without the user even knowing. Camera manufacturers are fighting a trench war, dug into the same trench for years, afraid to try anything out of the ordinary.

Not to mention software. Camera users beg, whine and hope for new firmwares from their lazy manufacturers that fixes this and does better that. While with phones people just build, share, sell and buy apps, most of which receive automatic updates weekly.

I'm glad that there are younger manufacturers like Sony and Sigma pioneering new things now. Imagine photography's future if they didn't.
Well said! I'll probably end up buying the K3, but there are several innovative features in the Nex cameras that i wish Pentax would follow up on. IIRC, focus peaking was invented by the video camera folks, not by the still camera folks. Sony's panning mode, anti-blur motion scene (takes 6 shots and stacks them in the camera), etc. all were innovative.

But i think the most revolutionary design step would be to incorporate apps in all cameras. Now instead of whining for features in firmware, user groups could develop their own wanted features and implement them. Sony had this idea with the Nex 6 and Nex 5 lines, but seemed reluctant to give it full reign. Smart phones/cams have apps but not dslrs. Where the disconnect??? Or are the Japanese camera mfr just not answering the phone :-)
01-22-2014, 11:57 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
That means that the price of an FF camera will be moving into flagship APS-C DSLR pricing territory.
That's really already done, right? The 6D is/was $1500. The D600 was $2k with a lens and some other baubles over a year ago.

In my mind the 'historic' flagship APS-C price was $1300-$1800 (a few were a bit more). Of course APS-C 'flagship' is going to continually have price pressure from above as FF sensors get cheaper and cheaper.
01-22-2014, 12:01 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by rbefly Quote
Pentax, on the other hand, has five bodies in the above-mentioned price range. With the exception of the K-5II and IIs, which presents a choice (perhaps) not easily understood by newer buyers, there are clear differences in price, features and user-skill level.
I'm not so clear on it. The K-5/K-30/K-5II/K-50... I don't feel like there was/is a clear difference in price/features.

I agree with your premise - confusing overlap is bad, changing models too quickly is bad - but I don't see Pentax having a clear history of features/etc.

In the past I thought it was actually better - the difference between the K-r and the K-5 was abundantly clear, and the letter vs number was easy to remember.

Hopefully now there's a little more stability in naming convention, we'll see. At least the K-3 is clearly differentiated from the K-50, in both features and naming, for instance.
01-24-2014, 10:12 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
That's really already done, right? The 6D is/was $1500. The D600 was $2k with a lens and some other baubles over a year ago.

In my mind the 'historic' flagship APS-C price was $1300-$1800 (a few were a bit more). Of course APS-C 'flagship' is going to continually have price pressure from above as FF sensors get cheaper and cheaper.
I've begun to wonder which way it is - are the FF cameras being forced to come down on price due to competition with APS sales, or is it the FF cameras pressuring the APS cameras?

There's so much conjecture out there - one i read said that APS sensors would disappear because of pressure from the m4/3 on one side and FF on the other side. than later i read that Oly was going bankrupt and Panasonic was throwing in the towel on m4/3 so there wouldn't be a m4/3 in the future. Than FF might die out. At one point, all DSLR were predicted to die out. Future predictions are entertaining to say the least.
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