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11-05-2013, 04:02 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by prime.partisan Quote
Which doesn't have any real meaning. Interesting? Being silly surely qualifies as interesting. So they torpedoed the poor thing, then saved the crew. Happy ending for everyone
Whatever.

11-05-2013, 04:15 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
And our Pentaxes haven't had officially replaceable screens either,
?? But what about the 3 or 4 offical Pentax focus screens available for the K-20D/K-7/K-5/K-5II/K-3 and for sale by Pentax?
11-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
D4 grade image quality for half the price will undoubtedly gain a following
I think the D610 and D800 both offer D4 (or better) IQ at half the price. If Pentax releases a K-1 with 24MPs I'm sure it will provide better IQ than the Df.

I would have to hold the Df and use it. I like a lot of what the Df has to offer, but I'm not sure it fits the market outside of those who are nostalgic for the old film body and are willing to pay a premium for the build/style. From simply a performance point of view, I'm not sure it will perform better than the D610. I was really expecting to be excited by the Df, but the looks and the cost/performance ratio don't appeal to me. If Nikon has worked some magic and is getting a lot better IQ and high-ISO out of the Df, then I might change my mind and buy a Nikon.

Right now, I would rather have A K-3 with a FF sensor in it.
11-05-2013, 04:36 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Because they want it but can't afford it?

D4 grade image quality for half the price will undoubtedly gain a following.
Adam is spot on here. And this is why--despite my large investment in high-end K mount glass--I'll be buying this camera.

I'll take the 16mp D4 sensor over that of the D800 any day. It will give me the low noise, low light performance I need with reasonable file size and all the resolution I require for my prints.

The *real* point of this camer, however, is missed by many. It's ergonomics and handling. Having actual dials for control of essential camera features is simply more efficient than the 'modern' computer-toy, menu-driven layouts. (Fuji figured this one out. Now it appears Nikon has done so as well.) And all of this is now in a moderately sized camera.

While this camera isn't perfect, it is what many Pentaxians have been asking for for a long-time now. Pentax didn't want my money, so I'll be giving it to Nikon instead (something I thought I would never say).

11-05-2013, 06:19 PM   #35
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Clearly one man's "bashing" is another man's "critical analysis". Personally, I don't see a great deal of bashing about the Df, but I do see some criticisms of aspects that belie what it purports to be (principally the small viewfinder magnification and the non-replaceable viewfinder screens) and there is some consideration of the actual ergonomics of the exposure controls. There are also some expressed views on the appearance of the camera, which is valid - you either like it or not - but the total amount of complete dismissal is small.

As I haven't seen or held one, let alone used it and seen the results (one assumes the photos it takes will be pretty good, because of the electronic underpinnings) I think comment on its functionality should really be suspended until it's been tried. That, of course, hasn't stopped other waves of enthusiasm or summary dismissal, here, based on very little or no experience, either with other brands or with Pentax products.

What it clearly is, to me, is something of a vanity product, like a Volkswagen New Beetle or a BMW MINI, ie something clearly new, but reflecting the old, and premium priced. That doesn't automatically invalidate it, because many people get a great deal of fun out of those types of products, and good luck to them. It will take good photos, and it may satisfy a number of people's hankering for something that looks old but functions like a new product. I suspect it may leave some real enthusiasts feeling a little empty for the experience, and certainly a little lighter in the pocket, but for those for whom it works we should all be happy.

Last edited by RobA_Oz; 11-05-2013 at 07:47 PM.
11-05-2013, 06:25 PM   #36
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why
Because it is a D600 in a "retro" shell selling for $1000 more.
And anyone with some idea about retro camera controls should know there is nothing retro about the controls of this thing.
the dials just stack on each other. Maybe their engineers should learn a thing or two how Pentax integrates the rewind crank, ev compensation and ISO into one dial.
retro 35mm cameras is about compactness clean design and simple controls.
This thing has none of that.
AF viewfinder with focus screen made for AF.
Pentax, show how it is done with the LX-D.

also the little tab on the lens mount, it just allows mount pre-ai lens without jamming. metering is still "crippled".

Last edited by liam; 11-05-2013 at 06:37 PM.
11-05-2013, 06:34 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Byrd-2020 Quote
Adam is spot on here. And this is why--despite my large investment in high-end K mount glass--I'll be buying this camera.

I'll take the 16mp D4 sensor over that of the D800 any day. It will give me the low noise, low light performance I need with reasonable file size and all the resolution I require for my prints.

The *real* point of this camer, however, is missed by many. It's ergonomics and handling. Having actual dials for control of essential camera features is simply more efficient than the 'modern' computer-toy, menu-driven layouts. (Fuji figured this one out. Now it appears Nikon has done so as well.) And all of this is now in a moderately sized camera.

While this camera isn't perfect, it is what many Pentaxians have been asking for for a long-time now. Pentax didn't want my money, so I'll be giving it to Nikon instead (something I thought I would never say).
DXO seems to disagree with you.
Out of all Nikon FF sensors, D4 sensor is ranked the lowest.

I fail to see the advantage of shutter speed dial + aperture ring have over dual dial.
Sure you can adjust the setting when camera is off. What is the advantage of that? you have to turn the camera when you take a shot anyway.

11-05-2013, 07:07 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Because they want it but can't afford it?
That may be true in a few cases, but a lot of posters in this thread alone offered good objective explanations for their disappointment (e.g., regarding the lack of an interchangeable focusing screen).

AFAIC, DPReview nailed it in their Df preview when they write
"The danger is that the design gets in the way of usability."
The K-01 had the same problem. Both cameras are fashion statements first and tools for photography second because they sacrifice usability on the altar of "good looks".

I like solid mechanical controls and a classic look as well, but what is the point of going back to old limitations? As DPReview point out, not all old designs were better; partly they were borne out of design/production limitations. Should the Df have an advance lever that you need to operate before you take the next shoot, because this helps to "slow you down" and be more concious about your photography?

The exclusion of video is another example for unnecessary crippling. If they had optimised the technology for still photography -- e.g., by using a CCD sensor or implementing a more precise but slow sensor readout -- then I would have been in favour of omitting video. But the Df's sensor is video capable and it appears the reasons for not supporting video are purely marketing driven.

In summary, it does not feel like a camera made by photographers for photographers. It feels more like a camera made by marketing people for fashionistas.

Last edited by Class A; 11-05-2013 at 07:13 PM.
11-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Byrd-2020 Quote
Adam is spot on here. And this is why--despite my large investment in high-end K mount glass--I'll be buying this camera.

I'll take the 16mp D4 sensor over that of the D800 any day. It will give me the low noise, low light performance I need with reasonable file size and all the resolution I require for my prints.

The *real* point of this camer, however, is missed by many. It's ergonomics and handling. Having actual dials for control of essential camera features is simply more efficient than the 'modern' computer-toy, menu-driven layouts. (Fuji figured this one out. Now it appears Nikon has done so as well.) And all of this is now in a moderately sized camera.

While this camera isn't perfect, it is what many Pentaxians have been asking for for a long-time now. Pentax didn't want my money, so I'll be giving it to Nikon instead (something I thought I would never say).
Come join us on nikonforums.com once you get it

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11-05-2013, 08:34 PM   #40
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bashing it is fun since the ads themselves are so pompous -

it's a serious camera for serious people who does "pure" photography...

So that's why no video, but it does have all the goofy built-in retouching features. If this camera is so serious, maybe it should just have one output mode - RAW or go home, you non-seriously-pure-photography people! lol

Being a closet hipster, I do like the retro look (but this is borderline steampunk, with the bizillion number of dials sticking all over the place). However the appeal is also that within a retro body, a fully-functional modern camera. Sure the 3 year old FF sensor is still very good at low lights, but there's a reason why it makes sense to have such a low-light camera in the D4 - a paparazzi camera where you can spray and pray in *whatever* lighting condition to get the best shots possible. This seems completely counter to the philosophy behind "pure" photography, where shots supposely are composed methodically, quietly, and carefully. Maybe a better sensor would be the one in D800E. At that price level, it shouldn't be a problem.
11-05-2013, 08:37 PM   #41
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Interesting how almost no-one is talking about the Sony A7, now...
11-05-2013, 08:44 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...
In summary, it does not feel like a camera made by photographers for photographers. It feels more like a camera made by marketing people for fashionistas.
That's a fine assessment. However, it's a generalization and ignores a person's actual preference for, say, this dial interface no matter how inferior or irrational it may seem to anyone else.
11-06-2013, 12:13 AM   #43
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This really is the camera release 'no one' was waiting for.

But I think I can see where Nikon wants to go with this.
Think Leica, think swiss watches.
Leica was 'smart' in that they felt that the consumer electronics product cycles would doom them to expensive RnD and tooling/production costs and decided to jump out of that into a 'boutique' camera brand.
This is Nikons attempt at this.

But I fail to get it.
1. More of its user base has moved to modern lenses (many don't even know of the old ones). So that means the user base for old Nikon only lenses is smaller.
Since Ai lenses can be used on the existing FF, many of those who wanted FF for their old Ai lenses, already got a Nikon FF.

2. Expensive for what it is.

3. If I was a manual/old lens junkie, I'd get A7/r to play with a bigger pool of lenses/brands

4. Not inspiring (to me at least) other than the pseudo classic looking top (the rest look modern and in fact looks like a K5 in size).
No focusing screen change; Viewfinder can be better (for that price); Busy and less useful shutter speed dial;
Even the use of the D4 sensor, imo is used not for the iso performance advantage, but to make it more forgiving to focus inaccuracies in manual focus.
In many cases, 16mp is probably enough for the enthusiast, but the camera is not cheap.

Put it in context.
An old $500 Canon 5D, takes these Nikkor lenses as well as others like M42; CY;
11-06-2013, 12:18 AM   #44
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Personally, I think it's a pretty cool camera and if I was a Nikon guy I would want one. Right now, I'm thinking of all the threads I we have seen through the years wishing for a basic film camera with a digital back or a basic digital K1000. Well, Nikon did it although basing it on a high end film camera rather than a basic one and the ridicule starts. The only opinion that will count in the end are those who actually buy one. If Nikon is successful, everybody will be building a camera like this two years from now.

To add one thing, it would be hard for me to justify spending that much money on any camera body no matter how good it is. Maybe a used one in 5 years.
11-06-2013, 01:57 AM   #45
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Just anwer to original question, looks like almoust everything is wrong with this Nikon. Retro is good exuce to make lousy camera in modern standards?
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