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01-09-2014, 06:50 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
Not for many folks. Read StaceyK
Skin tones D4 vs D6xx: Nikon FX SLR (DF, D1-D4, D600-D800) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review or ask any Nikon shooter than moved their from the Fuji dslr about skin tones.
I hope these guys are calibrating there monitors...

01-09-2014, 10:39 AM   #17
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You guys that are good with color are lucky. I'm an old BW film guy and really don't get along with all the fine nuances that it takes to do color well.
01-09-2014, 11:26 AM - 2 Likes   #18
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I don't disagree at all that it's subjective. I do disagree with the apparent ease at with which some say they can get any color out of any camera. I see enough posts to the contrary to believe that they are the exception rather than the rule. People are criticized for not managing their WB properly. Clearly on some of the examples the cameras chose the correct WB, but that doesn't mean skin will look the same, or a tree will have the same saturation, hue, or luminance of green. Skin and the greens of the outdoors are colors we all have a strong concept of how they should look and small variances stand out in a big way. On the other colors are not such "memory" colors and differences aren't noticed as much.

My own take is that I'd rather use the camera that gets me closer to what I want right out of the camera without having to jump through hoops and do contortions to achieve it. I'd rather be shooting photos that fighting them in post.

Take a look through the forums. You'll see more complaints on Nikon skin tone than Canon skin tone. If I made a living shooting portraits, I'd start with the platform that required the least amount of post to get pleasing skin tones.

I do think some of the posters to these threads were onto something when they talked about CCD vs CMOS. I'm not saying CCD was better, just different. What also plays into it I'm sure is the sensors and processing pipelines are being optimized for high iso. I don't see anyone fighting to give us ultra clean 25 or 50 iso. Great skin tones might be a casualty of some of the hot rodding of the sensors. Just a thought.

Personally if I shot a Nikon I'd end up with a lot more black and white photos.
01-10-2014, 09:23 AM   #19
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It isn't some sort of unexplained magic. Canon reds are different. See here for an example:
Color blindness & sensor quality - DxOMark

This has a similar effect as using a red filter when shooting black and white. Skin looks better, subjectively speaking. But some information is lost or concealed.

Canon sensor + Canon image processing = different look.

You could remix the red channels by subtracting a portion of green and blue information to estimate a Nikon image, but honestly nobody does that. You could twiddle the colors to your liking, which some people do, but it won't be exactly the same. Or you can shoot Canon and get the Canon look.

Honestly, I think the idea that different manufacturers should capture the same image under the same circumstances is more magical thinking than the alternative: Canon files are different.

01-10-2014, 01:17 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aegon Quote
... This has a similar effect as using a red filter when shooting black and white. Skin looks better, subjectively speaking. ...
Yes, subjective. I shoot a lot a of BW film and use color filters a lot. I'd be very hesitant to use a red filter. First, the 3 stop penalty is bad enough and second it would not yield good separation of a person's red/pink lips and skin tone. An uncommon filter is made specifically for portraiture. A yellow-green filter.
01-10-2014, 04:53 PM   #21
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tuco, I bow to your knowledge of B&W photography.

Actually, I think you are a talented photographer in color too. As are many Nikon users, as evidenced by the various threads around this forum.

I'm not sure my red filter analogy makes sense. After all, I have very limited experience with B&W + filters.

My point wasn't so much about B&W filter use. I'm certainly not an authority on that subject (or other subjects, but hey: Internet).

My point was really that the different manufacturers have different sensitivity curves for the different color channels, and the curve for Canon's red channel includes more influence outside of the red part of the spectrum. Therefore, the presence of blue or particularly green light will appear as red from the Canon sensor. I believe that this tends to smooth out skintones.

For example, the chart for spectral sensitivity shows that Canon has a 20% relative sensitivity to 550 nm light (green), whereas Nikon has essentially 0% sensitivity at that wavelength. So green light will contribute to Canon's red.

I don't think this is a "mistake" or some failure by Canon to develop a better color filter. I think that Canon image scientists tune their sensor to have this property because they've found that some portion of people prefer the look.

And I think that this is only one example of the type of difference that can be measured. Who knows what kind of tricks are baked into the RAW files, or even baked into Lightroom's RAW converter?
01-10-2014, 05:13 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aegon Quote
...
I'm not sure my red filter analogy makes sense. After all, I have very limited experience with B&W + filters.
Thanks for the generous compliment.

In the days of only wet printing, extended red sensitive films and perhaps a red filter would help on people who had a lot of acne on their face. But today with a figital workflow you can spot heal those out. The lips/skin separation is a personal preference and perhaps more applicable to women than men since women tend to wear red lipstick.


Last edited by tuco; 01-10-2014 at 05:22 PM. Reason: spelling
01-13-2014, 08:00 AM   #23
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I should've titled my post:

"Let's talk about skin tones on Nikon and Canon."
01-13-2014, 02:15 PM   #24
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I personally like skins tones from Nikon, Canon, and Pentax. I find Pentax whitens the skin more, makes it look a bit pale if you compare it side by side with a Nikon file...but if you didn't do the side by side comparison I don't think I would notice.

for me it's the lens rendering, and I much prefer the rendering of Nikon glass over Canon. The majority of Nikon glass I've used has very similar rendering qualities to Pentax glass. ie my 24mm f2.8 D lens renders very similarly to my DA 15 Limited, the 50 1.8G reminds me of my 55mm f1.4 DA*. Still looking for something that will give me 77mm style rendering though. From Canon, and I got limited experience in only trying a 5DMKII, and I really only enjoyed the 85mm f1.2 and 70-200 f2.8. The 50mm felt a little bland, as did the other zoom (28-70 f2.8 I think?) compared to the Nikon lenses...
01-14-2014, 10:05 PM - 1 Like   #25
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They say a surprisingly high percentage of males are colour blind. What does that say about the relevance of this thread?
01-15-2014, 02:00 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Thanks for the generous compliment.

In the days of only wet printing, extended red sensitive films and perhaps a red filter would help on people who had a lot of acne on their face. But today with a figital workflow you can spot heal those out. The lips/skin separation is a personal preference and perhaps more applicable to women than men since women tend to wear red lipstick.
Useless anecdotal fact:
makeup artists on old black and white silent movies gave the women green lipstick to yield dark lips despite the red or orange filters.

Regards,
--Anders.
01-15-2014, 11:33 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by asp1880 Quote
Useless anecdotal fact:
makeup artists on old black and white silent movies gave the women green lipstick to yield dark lips despite the red or orange filters.

Regards,
--Anders.
Must have been light green lip stick. Black lips look pretty gothic. I've tried a green filter with a person wearing red lipstick. It was not very appealing.
01-15-2014, 01:16 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr_Canuck Quote
They say a surprisingly high percentage of males are colour blind. What does that say about the relevance of this thread?
That's because we see seven colors: Red, yellow, blue, green, black, orange, pink
females see: turquoise, amber, periwinkle, almond, azure, cyan, violet, khaki.....
01-16-2014, 02:44 AM   #29
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Basically the discussion is around the Sony sensor vs Canon sensor utilized in all current dslrs and how they render color within the image.

The Nikon D7100 and the D600/610 now utilize a Toshiba sensor - has anyone done a comparison with this sensor and the Canon's?

Lastly - can anyone actually say what an ideal skin tone is?
01-16-2014, 10:00 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
Lastly - can anyone actually say what an ideal skin tone is?
Certainly not me. And how many posts have I seen where people say they really like the color rendering of, say, their Zeiss lens? So apparently optics is also a factor. Perhaps just as much as the sensor.
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