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06-09-2014, 05:07 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
The example about wanting to maintain shutter speed and dof - well sometimes. I would say for many maintaining shutter speed is more important than maintaining dof because unless you are shooting with shallow dof for artistic purpose and I'll agree there are times you will do that. Otherwise, when dof is not maintained, it gets greater not shallower and that's better for landscape, group photos and a whole bunch of other photography.
You haven't understood what I said. I said keep the same shutter speed, use a smaller aperture on the large-sensor camera, and increase ISO to give the same exposure. You will have the deep DOF you want, you will have the shutter speed you need, and you will have the same amount of noise, on both the small camera shot and the large camera shots.

QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
If it was like full frame I would own m4/3 in a heartbeat because I want the DOF at faster shutter speeds.
No problem, keep the fast shutter speed, and stop down the aperture on your camera, you will get the same DOF as a m4/3. The bigger problem occurs if you want to get very shallow DOF on m4/3, because you have to buy a really fast and therefore expensive lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
The equivalence argument seems to think that I always want the same DOF
Not at all. Equivalence is simply a formula for comparing the output of cameras that use different sensor sizes. It will show you what settings and gear you need in order to take the photo you want, with the correct DOF, AOV, SNR and perspective.

06-09-2014, 07:38 AM   #32
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Cranking the ISO is not the answer I'm looking for. It may be acceptable or fashionable to some now that we have clean high ISO

I want as low of an ISO as possible for the best image quality. I usually shoot at base ISO, so I'm often not adjusting that. Image quality deteriorates in several ways when you come off of base ISO. For all the love of high dynamic range and how Canon is beat so badly by Nikon, if you shoot your Nikon D800 above 1600, it's DR is no better than the Canon. The Canon is better from 3200 on.

Tonality, and color depth decay in the same way as we move up the ISO scale. A relatively noise free high ISO image does not mean it's a high quality image, it just means it lacks noise. It also lacks dynamic range, color depth, tone and so on.

Yes a smaller sensor will have slightly more noise at almost any ISO than a larger one, but is almost never a problem when printed at base ISO, or when doing anything other than pixel peeping at 100+ percent.

Equivalence is only partially true. The math is correct, but were not anywhere close to capturing all the values that give quality to an image that differ because of sensor size. I'll never get the nice tonality with a D800 that I will with an 8x10 view camera, equivalent settings or not. In fact you'll never get the nice tonality with of digital 135 vs digital medium format, equivalence or not. So if equivalence is not really equivalent when you get down to it, why is it so prevalent in the last couple of years? I suspect is largely used as a marketing tactic to move folks up the line to cameras with a higher profit margin. Canon and Nikon would rather have people looking their way than at the smaller sensored offerings. It makes the manufacturers happy because it leaves some feeling their gear is inadequate and keeps them upgrading, it leaves the people that own full frame patting themselves on the back. It's a win win.
06-09-2014, 08:23 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
In fact you'll never get the nice tonality with of digital 135 vs digital medium format, equivalence or not.
That's wrong. You'll get the same tonality, just like you do between the D800 and D7000, assuming the sensor has the 'same technology'.

QuoteOriginally posted by RyanW Quote
Equivalence is only partially true
I've never seen evidence that supports that declaration. The closest is that, in practice, lenses are sharper on larger format cameras, but that just describes difficulty in lens design, not an inadequacy of equivalence.

QuoteQuote:
Canon and Nikon would rather have people looking their way than at the smaller sensored offerings.
Really? Full frame was cheaper for me. I expect Nikon wants you to buy expensive 17-55 lenses rather than cheap 24-85 lenses.
06-09-2014, 09:34 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I'm looking for the Fuji X30 to be announced soon, maybe this month. It rumors to have a fast 2.0 like the X20/X10 but with a larger sensor like the SonyRX100. If so, it should be a killer camera.....if it keeps the same X20 superb metal body and excellent OVF. Nothing wrong with the X20,but a larger sensor would sure up the performance in low light and give better resolution.

Regards!
I know we can count on you, Rupert, for the first posted review on that one! I'm definitely curious and looking forward to reading your take on the X30. Don't get too carried away in joy and wonderment that you go easy on the IQ comparisons to our favored, so-called "serious cameras" under various conditions. As you might guess from my previous response posts, I'm particularly interested to know if all the good qualities you realized shooting for monochrome presentation are retained with the same practical ease and simplicity.

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