[jcdoss]

Christine, did you read this?

Trolling for Dummies | New Camera News

I bet you did, and wanted to test your skill.

[6BQ5]

The problem for YOU is not the size but the name S O N Y .

Where's my popcorn?

[Rondec]

The problem for YOU is not the size but the name S O N Y .

I did not specifically attack Sony. I happen to be a fan of the SLR form factor, but if you like mirrorless cameras, that's fine too.

[RobA_Oz]

Do you mean my Apple/Sony comparison? Because that's exactly what I said...

Maybe i shouldn't write late at night. People often make mistake design for innovation, and both Apple and Sony have strong design and development teams. My emphasis was on the fact that Apple has turned their technical expertise into a mountain of cash, whereas Sony has done the exact opposite.

[Christine Tham]

Not sure the Apple/Sony comparison works for me either.

To me, the "Apple" of the camera world is Leica. High prices, unique no compromise design, a certain mystique, and a fanatical owner base. Leica isn't quite as successful though, so not a perfect comparison. I'm an Apple fan (I own everything from Mac Pro to iPhone) but I can't quite convince myself to go Leica 100%.

Sony is more like Samsung. Actually, no, more like an HTC or Motorola - previously successful, obviously trying very hard, not quite there yet. Sony does have a design heritage, unlike HTC or Motorola, so hopefully they will eventually succeed. I certainly hope so, since I look forward to buying more of their products in the future.

[jogiba]

In 2005, Steve Jobs' announcement that Apple's computers would be moving from PowerPC to Intel surprised many. OS X had been living "a secret double life" with Intel for five years, said Jobs, but according to a new report from Japan, that life almost included an even more shocking partner — Sony.

Japanese freelance writer Nobuyuki Hayashi, who has covered Apple for over two decades, quotes ex-Sony president Kunitake Ando recalling a 2001 meeting between him and Jobs in Hawaii. After playing a round of golf with other Sony executives, says Ando, "Steve Jobs and another Apple executive were waiting for us at the end of the golf course holding VAIO running Mac OS." Jobs had shut down the Mac "clone" business years earlier but, according to Ando, admired Sony's VAIO line so much he was "willing to make an exception."

Steve Jobs wanted Sony VAIOs to run OS X | The Verge

[RyanW]

I am not normally a fan of PetaPixel, but decided to share this article to annoy the Sony haters

Seriously, I actually found it an interesting read. i wasn't a Sony fan till recently, so knew nothing about their pre-NEX history. If you had asked me whether I would have seriously considered buying Sony cameras 5 years ago, I would have laughed at you.

Alpha Dog: How Sony Created the Most Innovative Camera Brand in Under a Decade

It glosses over how they've rather let the Alpha lens development languish. I think the new A77 and subsequent A99 will be great cameras and we have Minolta to thank for the traditional shape and handling. Sony haven't managed to mess that up yet

[Christine Tham]

Steve Jobs wanted Sony VAIOs to run OS X | The Verge

I remember reading that. Would be quite a different world if Sony had agreed to make OSX laptops.

But then we forget, Apple at one stage was in deep trouble, worse than even Sony today. Remember Apple in the 90s? complete joke. Pink, Taligent, a raft of failed OS attempts, a severely declining market share. At one stage I seem to remember Sun Microsystems was thinking of purchasing Apple. So was HP.

In 2001 Apple was still struggling. I am not surprised Sony would have considered it too risky.

[Christine Tham]

I don't think Sony is identifying gaps and addressing them with innovative products. I think they're designing innovative products and throwing them at a wall, hoping that some stick will stick and find a user base.

LOL - that may be what YOU think but I am pretty sure that is not what Sony thinks, based on my interactions with them (product managers, design engineers).

NO large organisation would design random products and throw them at a wall (well, perhaps Samsung with their smart watches LOL). Sony knows exactly who they are targeting with each product, and what the potential market is. Whether they are successful or not in reaching that target market is a different question.

The targeting is sometimes specific to individuals. For example, Sony knows I am into high end audio (we have spent over $100,000 on our main system), they invite me to their product launches. The strategy works - I have just purchased their latest high resolution amplifier and also their new high resolution Walkman.

And Sony is very good at responding to user feedback from their intended target market. I bought the first generation Action Cam. It was a good first effort, but there was quite a lot of room for improvement. I took the trouble to collect feedback from my cycling friends and sent the product manager a long email - I am pleased that the latest generation Action Cam has incorporated nearly all the feedback we consolidated (even features I personally thought were not worth implementing - for example the ability to flip the video upside down - that's in the latest model).

[nickthetasmaniac]

Maybe i shouldn't write late at night. People often make mistake design for innovation, and both Apple and Sony have strong design and development teams. My emphasis was on the fact that Apple has turned their technical expertise into a mountain of cash, whereas Sony has done the exact opposite.

Lol once again, that was my point

Apple has a very small portfolio of clearly targeted products. Apple knows what it wants you to want.

To me, the "Apple" of the camera world is Leica. High prices, unique no compromise design, a certain mystique, and a fanatical owner base. Leica isn't quite as successful though, so not a perfect comparison.

Yes and no in my view. Leica makes money out of charging a lot of money to a small group of people for very desirable products. Apple makes money by convincing everyone to pay a lot of money for very desirable products.

[Christine Tham]

Leica makes money out of charging a lot of money to a small group of people for very desirable products. Apple makes money by convincing everyone to pay a lot of money for very desirable products.

That has only been true for the last few years - and only due to the iPod, then the iPhone. Apple has never been able to convince a lot of people to buy the Macs.

If you take a broader view of Apple's history, for the majority of it's existence it's business model and Leica have been surprisingly similar. Steve Jobs even famously compared the iPhone 4 to a Leica.

Even now, Apple's market share has been eroded by Samsung. It is quite conceivable that the Apple and Leica models will once again be very similar in the future.

[RobA_Oz]

Lol once again, that was my point

So it was. I said I shouldn't write late at night. Apparently I shouldn't when I'm busy, either.

Now that I've got a little more time to reflect on the subject, I see more Sony doubters here than Sony haters. As much as I like some of their products (the RX100 III is looking more attractive than its predecessors, for example) I don't see that the proliferation of their products across such a variety of market niches amounts to a sustainable business strategy, but time will tell. By way of comparison, however, the contrast between Sony's frenetic product release cycle and Ricoh's casual stroll through product updates could hardly be more stark. If the rate of release of new product with the Pentax or Ricoh name on it doesn't pick up a bit soon, I'll likely become a doubter of them, too, in spite of how much I like my K-3.

[VisualDarkness]

Hmmm I'm still not convinced by the Sony juggernaut...

I think the Apple/Sony comparison is interesting here. Both decided they wanted to be market leaders and pursued it with a frightening amount of enthusiasm, but whereas Sony seems to be jumping at shadows (in a very confident, slightly ADHD kind of way) in terms of market strategy and product release, Apple has a very small portfolio of clearly targeted products. Apple knows what it wants you to want. Sony can't remember what it had for breakfast.

For instance, A-mount APS with a reflex mirror, A-mount full-frame with a reflex mirror, A-mount APS with SLT, A-mount full-frame with SLT, APS mirror less, APS full-frame. And then there's the RX series that (kind of) sit in parallel... I don't think Sony is identifying gaps and addressing them with innovative products. I think they're designing innovative products and throwing them at a wall, hoping that some stick will stick and find a user base.

The benefit of this kind of approach is that with so many (partially) distinct product lines on the market, surely they will find users for at least some. The issue is two-fold - first, the R&D costs must be immense, and Sony isn't in the best financial position to begin with, and second, throwing out a new system every two years does nothing to build the devoted, almost religious fan base that brands like Apple enjoy (and even Canon/Nikon to a degree).

I think you nailed why Sony is bleeding money right now. The problem isn't their engineering department or even their sales volume, they just lack direction. They make some great products but waste too much money and energy by throwing new models at the same customers that already just bought the latest one.

Add in their innovating engineering and you also have to take in account the time and money to explain the products and why they are perfect for you to the costumers. It most likely creates one more lag in sales. Like me I got no idea how many NEX they have out there and which one is newer or older or even higher tier. Choosing takes energy and time too for the costumer and you may end up with no sales at all if they get confused and go for something more clear instead.

[JimmyDranox]

I like how Sony approach the FF market, with his A7 series. I don't like the camera, but the strategy is OK. If they could create some lens adapter to have AF on other type of lenses, and a more ergonomic design, this series could have been a great hit.

[VisualDarkness]

I like how Sony approach the FF market, with his A7 series. I don't like the camera, but the strategy is OK. If they could create some lens adapter to have AF on other type of lenses, and a more ergonomic design, this series could have been a great hit.

The A7 looks to be a system with loads of potential, now it's up to Sony to show some profiling skills for the product line. The problem for Sony with going for the adapters is that what they gain in camera and accessory sales by that approach they may lose in native lens sales, also third-party ones.
Metabones already went that road though: http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BM3