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09-15-2014, 11:31 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by kpl Quote
Is the old 7D really so much faster focussing than even the K3?
Never had the oppotunity to evaluate this myself, but I imagine it would be interesting to see how they actually perform using the same third party lens, the same open minded and competent photographer and the same setting/scenario

Edit:
Just watched the video below. Obviously not the setup I was talking about, however, the 7D with 70-200L USM is impressive when I compare it to my K3 with 60-250 SDM ^^
Pentax K-7 vs Canon 7D Focus Speed Test - YouTube

Well, I guess we all know that SDM is not exactly famous for being blazingly fast focussing.
On the other hand, my DA Limiteds are quite fast focussing. Loud, but fast

Cheers,
kpl
After shooting for 40 years I trust my own experiences and judgement over the proclamations of "Internet experts" who live in a two-dimensional world. Yes the 7D is that much better than the K-3 with the available lenses. Problem is that Pentax has not released any sports-and-wildlife oriented long lenses that could fulfill the K-3 AF and FPS capabilities. Poor customer service in its truest sense.

I assume that camera designers develop their AF performance requirements using their own lenses. I've never had a third party lens AF as well as an OEM offering, so your suggestion of using like to compare AF on both brands would bring out the best of the worst.

Now, that said, I have taken hundreds of shots using very similar Tokina lenses and their Pentax counterparts on both of the bodies under discussion. Wider focal lengths are real similar in performance, but that is less of a systems test than isolating action with a longer lens. So to answer your point: yes the Tokina 50-135mm f2.8--which does not have ultra-sonic focusing but is still super quiet--does capture action more accurately and consistently than the corresponding DA* Pentax.

Until Pentax comes out with a longer lens designed to work with the K-3 or newer models, the book will remain open on the K-3's AF performance.

Now, that all said, if the 7D's mk2's AF is very similar to that of the 5Dmk3, and it reads that way, then that will be a high standard to follow for all cropped sensor bodies.

M

09-15-2014, 12:31 PM   #32
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QuoteQuote:
Problem is that Pentax has not released any sports-and-wildlife oriented long lenses that could fulfill the K-3 AF and FPS capabilities. Poor customer service in its truest sense.
I guess you could also say, Canon to date hasn't released a sensor with the Dynamic Range of a K-5. With DxO sensor rating system for landscape the highest rated Canon sensor is the 6D rated in 100th place at 12.1 EV. That's not on par with a K-x. So we can expect another sub-par offering from Canon based on past performance, where their current technology compares unfavourably to the camera I gave away to my daughter in law and that we stopped using over 2 years ago. I can't describe to you what it was like for a mostly landscape shooter to go from a K-x to a K-5 and I similarly couldn't imagine what it would be like to go from a K-3 to a 6D, Canon's best. So you make do, with what you don't do as much with to get what is really important, in a one camera system.

If you can buy a camera fr each of the different things you do and carry them all with you then sure, you might buy a camera just for fast AF. But it's far from the only criteria, and what has been impressive with Pentax's offerings since the K-5 is dynamic range.

It's incredible that Canon can offer a Full Frame Camera, that's almost a full EV behind a camera that can be had for $300, at more than 5 times the price, and it's their best. That's just inexcusable.

And those are ratings done where Pentax is weakest, in low light. Imagine what those curves would look like done in good light.

So yes Canon has some advantage, just for most Pentax users, the choice is slower AF but better rendition. Now having made that choice and being OK with it overall, I'm not sure why a Pentax shooter would all the sudden change his or her stripes. and suddenly opt for faster AF. Canon has always had faster AF. It's not like it happened yesterday. So it's probably pretty easy to say, AF speed was not the reason Pentax shooters bought their cameras, and it's not likely to be the reason they switch.

Canon may have set the AF standard, but there are lot's of standards. And Canon lags behind for landscape shooters (coming in with the 6D at 100th place.For low ISO , what DxO calls sports, Canon has a #10 placement. Now I'm not saying that I give any credence or really care about DxO or what it does or what it measures. Personally I find them irritating. But, they do make the point that a system cannot be judged on just one aspect of it's performance. For me it's all about IQ, and trading AF speed for Dynmaic Range is just unacceptable. That's why as much as I'd love to have faster AF, it wold hurt my photography to go to a Canon product. It might be harder to get that image, but once you have it, you have a better image with Pentax. If I'm looking FF right now, I'm looking A7r with a Pentax adapter. Something that will let my improve my Dynamic Range...and ranked right behind a Canon 1Dx overall, with much better Dynamic Range and Low Light performance. If you like your Pentax, that's what you should be looking at.

I you don't like your Pentax, maybe go buy a Canon if AF is everything for you.

Last edited by normhead; 09-15-2014 at 12:56 PM.
09-15-2014, 12:32 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
After shooting for 40 years I trust my own experiences and judgement over the proclamations of "Internet experts" who live in a two-dimensional world. Yes the 7D is that much better than the K-3 with the available lenses. Problem is that Pentax has not released any sports-and-wildlife oriented long lenses that could fulfill the K-3 AF and FPS capabilities. Poor customer service in its truest sense.

I assume that camera designers develop their AF performance requirements using their own lenses. I've never had a third party lens AF as well as an OEM offering, so your suggestion of using like to compare AF on both brands would bring out the best of the worst.

Now, that said, I have taken hundreds of shots using very similar Tokina lenses and their Pentax counterparts on both of the bodies under discussion. Wider focal lengths are real similar in performance, but that is less of a systems test than isolating action with a longer lens. So to answer your point: yes the Tokina 50-135mm f2.8--which does not have ultra-sonic focusing but is still super quiet--does capture action more accurately and consistently than the corresponding DA* Pentax.

Until Pentax comes out with a longer lens designed to work with the K-3 or newer models, the book will remain open on the K-3's AF performance.

Now, that all said, if the 7D's mk2's AF is very similar to that of the 5Dmk3, and it reads that way, then that will be a high standard to follow for all cropped sensor bodies.

M
Absolutely!
I simply don't get all the raving over the K3 when comparing to Canon's offering. The 7D is primarily meant as a birding/wildlife camera, and in that sense aided by the superb Canon tele lenses.
If Pentax is meant to be thé best wildlife/birding/outdoor system, they had better come up with some super teles that are at all within reach of Canon's offerings. The Da560/5.6 may or may not be a (very) good lens, you can argue, but in any event, it cannot seriously be compared to a Canon or Nikon 500mm lens, both are way beyond in AF and IQ. You can argue about the prices of the Canon or Nikon super tele lenses, but all serious birders or wildlife shooters will pick it over the Pentax DA560, superb K3 or not. There is a reason for that. You can rave over the K3 sensor or specks, but as a system, certainly a wildlife, birding system, Pentax is simply second rate to Nikon and Canon. It takes a whole lot of investing on Ricoh's side to change that, and I don't see it happening. As a budget system, you can praise Pentax, but at the high end, it's still all Canon and Nikon. The abysmal DA560 sales show it all. Nobody has ever really taken that lens seriously, not before, and not after the K3 release.
In short, bashing Canon over the conservative 7DII release is nonsense.

Chris
09-15-2014, 01:08 PM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteQuote:
If Pentax is meant to be thé best wildlife/birding/outdoor system, they had better come up with some super teles that are at all within reach of Canon's offerings.
That's simply not the part of photography Pentax focuses on, if Canon wants to compete in the landscape market, they better build some cameras that are good in low light and have better dynamic range. Lets see the new Canon 10 frames per second, the buffer holds 31 frames, the K-3 11 fps, and 29 frames. Canon, for dynamic range and low light is simply second rate to Pentax and Nikon and Sony. Their best rated camera the 6D is rated 100 on the DxO landscape scale and isn't even up to K-x standards. If you come on a Pentax site, expect Canon bashing. Most of our users, their first time Canon bashing was when they bought their camera. It's a clear statement, we don't want what Canon has to offer. This camera doesn't change anything. It does well what Canon's always did well, and doesn't do well what Canon has never done well. When are you clowns going to ever get it. We don't want what you're selling.

That being said, a Pentax shooter may have a more difficult time getting a good birding image... but when he/she does, more dynamic range means there's a very good chance it will be a better image.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/12-post-your-photos/273130-nature-bird-sh...m-f-5-6-a.html

OMG an image shot with a 560mm.. how is that possible with that horrible AF?

Have you ever seen the rough ride new Pentax product gets around here? Did you really think a Canon product was going to get a free pass?


Last edited by normhead; 09-15-2014 at 04:09 PM.
09-15-2014, 01:15 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
In short, bashing Canon over the conservative 7DII release is nonsense.

Chris
Do you expect people on Pentax forum to praise the release of 7DII? Hmmm... may be you are in the wrong forum..
09-15-2014, 01:28 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's simply not the part of photography Pentax focuses on, if Canon wants to compete in the landscape market, they better build some cameras that are good in low light and have better dynamic range. Lets see the new Canon 10 frames per second, the buffer hold 31 frames, the K-3 11 fps, and 29 frames. Canon, for dynamic range and low light is simply second rate to Pentax and Nikon and Sony. Their best rated camera the 6D is rated 100 on the DxO landscape scale and isn't even up to K-x standards. If you come on a Pentax site, expect Canon bashing. Most of our users, their first time Canon bashing was when they bought their camera. It's a clear statement, we don't want what Canon has to offer. This camera doesn't change anything. It does well what Canon's always did well, and doesn't do well what Canon has never done well. When are you clowns going to ever get it. We don't want what you're selling.

That being said, a Pentax shooter may have a more difficult time getting a good birding image... but when he/she does, more dynamic range means there's a very good chance it will be a better image.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/12-post-your-photos/273130-nature-bird-sh...m-f-5-6-a.html

OMG an image shot with a 560mm.. how is that possible with that horrible AF?
Norm - not to take away from the message but, I'm pretty sure the k-3 is not 11FPS. It's 8.3FPS.
09-15-2014, 02:04 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's simply not the part of photography Pentax focuses on,
What dóes Ricoh/Pentax focus on? It is not clear to me at least, certainly this year's Photokina does not make it any clearer.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
wants to compete in the landscape market, they better build some cameras that are good in low light and have better dynamic range.
I'll be the last to deny that Canon's sensor tech is trailing, and I am not suggesting Canon is competitive in landscape photography. The 7DII is not a landscape camera release.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That being said, a Pentax shooter may have a more difficult time getting a good birding image... but when he/she does, more dynamic range means there's a very good chance it will be a better image.
The DA 560mm will take some very nice sharp images, but on the level of handling difficult lighting it seriously lacks with purple fringing and sorts, and on the level of bokeh it cannot come close to Canon's superb 500mm in anything but optimal backgrounds. I don't see the very subtle natural yet rich colors of the Canon tele's either with the DA560, that apparently has rather wild colors at times, especially with saturated colors. And lastly I miss the fine velvety and detailed look from the Canon super tele's. The DA560 is mainly sharp in the best samples, but eventually misses subtle rendering.
I am not trying to insinuate that the Pentax DA560 is a bád lens, and this lens on the Pentax roadmap was actually one of the things that made me buy a K5, but after finding as much out about this lens as I could, including quite a few downloaded raw samples on the K3, I decided to keep the Sigma 500/4.5. With a lens like the DA560mm Pentax will never challenge Nikon and Canon birding/wildlife photography in the least.
In short: The Canon 7DII with Canon's lenses is simply superior in the long lens range to Pentax with the DA560 or the Sigma 500/4.5. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, but Pentax trails too far in the lens department.

Chris

09-15-2014, 02:09 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OMG an image shot with a 560mm.. how is that possible with that horrible AF?
That's funny, but really, shooting zoo-type animals shouldn't be much of a test for any DSLR body and lens. These are pretty shots, but it is the erratic movement of birds far away from one's backyard bird feeder that really test a predictive AF system.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
if Canon wants to compete in the landscape market, they better build some cameras that are good in low light and have better dynamic range
Problem is, Canon shots do set the standard for pretty much all facets of contemporary photography--Nikon too. Whereas almost no one uses a Pentax K-3 to capture birds or sports for publication. Just perform a search at the Nature Photographers Network or Sportsshooters. I've sold plenty of landscape shots made with my 7D. No one knows better than Canon shooters about the DR limitations of their equipment, but every system has shortcomings and issues. You just learn to work with it or around it. It took me a while to figure out how to get the best output from seemingly dense and noisy 7D files, but it is very achievable.

I'm a photographer and not a sensor engineer and I have to evaluate a wide array of product and support components in choosing a camera system. In 2014, all brands will get you a really good image. I consciously made the choice to forgo a relatively small DR advantage in exchange for world-class AF, a more complete and still active lens selection, professional services support, and more comprehensive third-party offerings. This works for me today. Tomorrow? who knows.

M
09-15-2014, 02:10 PM   #39
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Hm.... really not interested in 7DII, if I still want APSC, would get a K3 instead.

Nothing to envy about the 7DII I think...
09-15-2014, 03:46 PM   #40
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QuoteQuote:
I'm a photographer and not a sensor engineer and I have to evaluate a wide array of product and support components in choosing a camera system. In 2014, all brands will get you a really good image. I consciously made the choice to forgo a relatively small DR advantage in exchange for world-class AF, a more complete and still active lens selection, professional services support, and more comprehensive third-party offerings. This works for me today. Tomorrow? who knows.
I hate it when people compare their million dollar systems with my K-3. What you value is world class AF, what I value is world class DR." A more complete and active lens selection", is the ability to throw more money at your photographic problems. My photographic problem is heavy gear. Canon doesn't solve it. I want more ltds and more high quality lightweight lenses. I'm not sure why you keep saying this is why you don't want Pentax.. it's not like anybody here cares. Like what you want. It doesn't change what anyone else wants. So you like world class AF. No one here shooting Pentax thinks that's important. And they seem to be getting good results. Look through the 300mm plus lens thread. There are lots of guys getting great images flying birds etc. with Pentax gear. I don't see you posting there. You are making it sound like it can't be done. But guys like myself are out shooting with Canon guys and Nikon shooters 10-15 times a year. When they look at my pictures they like what they see. I like a lot of their images too. Whatever this amazing advantage is that you think is so important, it's not showing up very often. That's my experience. I don't sit in my office doing paper evaluations, I stand by other shooters and shoot at the same time they shoot. I'm the guy who nails the shot as much as anyone else. And that's true even working with my A-400 with no autofocus. Maybe I'm working harder, maybe I've just been doing it longer, i don't know. But I know what the results look like.









I've got lots of shots of small birds away from my feeder. Go to the 300 plus and talk shop if you want to know how people are doing it. But no one is going to advise you to go to and buy a Canon.
09-15-2014, 05:47 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote

Now, that all said, if the 7D's mk2's AF is very similar to that of the 5Dmk3, and it reads that way, then that will be a high standard to follow for all cropped sensor bodies.

M
The new 7D AF uses the color sensor to lock onto the subject or color patch as it moves across the AF points. It is a much more advanced AF tracking than what Pentax is using. This is the same system used in the 1DX. The large 150,000 RGB color meter can track the subject across the AF field. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe the K-3 can offer this. This also allows the photographer to recompose while the camera automatically keeps the subject locked.
09-15-2014, 06:13 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The new 7D AF uses the color sensor to lock onto the subject or color patch as it moves across the AF points. It is a much more advanced AF tracking than what Pentax is using. This is the same system used in the 1DX. The large 150,000 RGB color meter can track the subject across the AF field. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe the K-3 can offer this. This also allows the photographer to recompose while the camera automatically keeps the subject locked.
Does that actually work?
09-15-2014, 06:24 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The new 7D AF uses the color sensor to lock onto the subject or color patch as it moves across the AF points.
Nikon 3D tracking uses a similar combination of camera subsystems to lock onto subjects.
09-15-2014, 06:28 PM   #44
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Er, I'm pretty sure the k-3's 86,000 RGB color meter does the same. It may not be as precise or accurate, but it certainly was billed for that job.
09-15-2014, 07:46 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Er, I'm pretty sure the k-3's 86,000 RGB color meter does the same. It may not be as precise or accurate, but it certainly was billed for that job.
Do you have a link that describes how the Pentax color meter is used to track? I know it uses color information to improve AF tracking. I know its used for AF accuracy improves low light performance but I have yet to read anything on AF tracking.
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