[philbaum]

Canon and Nikon and Pentax, for that matter, have been careful not to build mirrorless cameras that could compete with their DSLRs. Canon's EOS M-mount for instance was a very simplified camera, same with K01. Features have been crippled or left out to ensure that these type cameras had no chance to be compared to the big guys - the DSLRs.

Same with Nikon - obviously the Nikon 1 was never going to challenge the capabilities of their DSLRs. I've lost count of the numerous digital FF models made by Nikon - the fact that they've never made one of those models mirrorless shows that they didn't want to open the door to let the consumer choose. Mirrorless were just going to be a new niche slightly above the PS models, nothing more.

Meanwhile, Sony has been creating almost every possible variant of mirrorless and Fuji has been creating hi-end models like the current XTI.

I don't mean to make light of the legacy decisions facing Canikon and Pentax - there are many difficult factors to consider.

To add grist to the mill, here is a Photokina interview

Photokina 2014: An interview with Sony Japan ? Mirrorless innovation, new lenses, and more! | MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews

Mathieu: Where is the Sony APS-C system most successful?

Aoki: It has been very successful worldwide. Yesterday Ishizuka* said that currently we have a 40% market share in the mirrorless segment. In most countries we are very successful and in Europe we are number one concerning the mirrorless market. In countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong Sony is number one or number two, more than Canon or Nikon. We are most successful in those countries because their mirrorless ratio is much higher than in Europe. In Europe currently almost 24 or 25% but in Japan already more than 50% are mirrorless.

Aoki: Exactly. For example, last year, the European mirrorless ratio was 13 or 14% only, which is very low. That’s why I was a bit concerned. But after the A7 and A6000, the mirrorless ratio is rapidly growing. So I concluded that this is dependent on the product. For instance, looking at the European market, the popular mirrorless products are always high-value cameras like the Fuji X-T1 or the Panasonic GH4 or the Olympus OM-D and our Alpha 7. All products are in the high-end segment. As for the lower segment, there isn’t good growth. Therefore we have to figure out how to stimulate the market, that’s really important. At Sony we intentionally want to keep challenging the market to stimulate it and change it.

[thibs]

People were laughing when Sony introduced the NEX system and E-mount.

I still do.
They still can't sell lenses.
Selling bodies is supposed the permit lenses sales, money being in the lenses.
Well, Sony does backward. Each to his own.

[Christine Tham]

I still do.
They still can't sell lenses.
Selling bodies is supposed the permit lenses sales, money being in the lenses.
Well, Sony does backward. Each to his own.

Thank you for your mature posting and enlightened attitude.

By the way, I own 15 native APS-C E-mount lenses (14 Sony, 1 Sigma) and 2 FE lenses (Zeiss).

In 6 months time, I am hoping to increase my collection to 21 (once the new lenses announced at Photokina are released). Also still thinking about buying the Zeiss Loxias.

[thibs]

Thank you for your mature posting and enlightened attitude.

By the way, I own 15 native APS-C E-mount lenses (14 Sony, 1 Sigma) and 2 FE lenses (Zeiss).

In 6 months time, I am hoping to increase my collection to 21 (once the new lenses announced at Photokina are released). Also still thinking about buying the Zeiss Loxias.

You're welcome.

[barondla]

I would not give up the ability to use k mount lenses for a slightly thinner body. Make a K-01 with better ergonomics, faster processor, larger buffer, and some type of EVF and it would sell fine.

No idea what Canon should do. Everyone says the future is mirrorless. It may not be. will just keep shooting my doomed Q.

Check out Point & Shoot contest #81 in compact camera forum. Enter #82. Any brand camera allowed.

[Christine Tham]

I would not give up the ability to use k mount lenses for a slightly thinner body. Make a K-01 with better ergonomics, faster processor, larger buffer, and some type of EVF and it would sell fine.

I would gladly buy a K-02 with Hybrid AF, EVF, fast continuous frame rate and large buffer. I don't even care about body style and pricing at this stage - I am that ready and willing customer.

A K-01FF? That would be dream come true.

[mecrox]

I would gladly buy a K-02 with Hybrid AF, EVF, fast continuous frame rate and large buffer. I don't even care about body style and pricing at this stage - I am that ready and willing customer.

A K-01FF? That would be dream come true.

Yes, I would be tempted by a K-02 but I would like it well designed. It means they cared, I think. Good Japanese design can be superb, so a camera that's very fine in the hand is more than possible.

I'm a little puzzled by the camera industry's posture towards the EVF. It seems mostly to be presented as an attribute of small, as in no mirror box = smaller registration distance = smaller camera. I wonder if any camera company is making a case out there for the EVF as being a bit more than about just this. So far as I can tell, you get a larger VF than the sensor format would allow if the VF was optical, realtime changes in exposure or at least a simulation of them, focus peaking, information overlays, zebra indicators, maybe a boost up of visibility in low light and then in the camera any advantages that come from not having a mirror around in terms of frame rates, smoothness and so forth. You can also have an EVF which swivels, at least up and down, something very hard to do with an OVF but probably quite useful for macros and other odd-angle moments. So, potentially anyway, there is a lot to like. AF would really have to be very good, however. If you had two identical cameras, with the only difference being that one had an OVF and one had an EVF, I wonder how the one with the EVF would sell by comparison.

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Last edited by mecrox; 09-23-2014 at 04:21 PM.

[Christine Tham]

I'm a little puzzled by the camera industry's posture towards the EVF. It seems mostly to be presented as an attribute of small, as in no mirror box = smaller registration distance = smaller camera. I wonder if any camera company is making a case out there for the EVF as being a bit more than about just this. So far as I can tell, you get a larger VF than the sensor format would allow if the VF was optical, realtime changes in exposure or at least a simulation of them, focus peaking, information overlays, zebra indicators, maybe a boost up of visibility in low light and then in the camera any advantages that come from not having a mirror around in terms of frame rates, smoothness and so forth. You can also have an EVF which swivels, at least up and down, something very hard to do with an OVF but probably quite useful for macros and other odd-angle moments. So, potentially anyway, there is a lot to like. AF would really have to be very good, however. If you had two identical cameras, with the only difference being that one had an OVF and one had an EVF, I wonder how the one with the EVF would sell by comparison.

For me, OVF is not an option (my eyes generally have problems focusing due to a problem caused by high cholesterol).

However, I am surprised that you think the options have not been explored.

EVF in a DSLR type body - check (Sony A-mount cameras)

EVF that can swivel - check (Sony EVF hotshoe attachment)

"EVF" completely separate from camera (Sony QX, kind of)

AF very good - check (Sony A6000 - easily the best AF out there at the moment, based on my experience)

Given that Pentax uses Sony sensors, there is no reason whatsoever that Pentax can't release a killer K-02. Even full frame if they wanted to. Heck they can even retain the K-01 design (I quite like it myself - it certainly looks different). But the K-S1 design is nice - they could also adopt that. I am not a fan of retro - Pentax can leave that to Fuji (one of the reasons I never buy Fuji).

To me, EVF is not necessarily a desirable attribute on it's own (my own eye issues notwithstanding and other advantages such as overlay information) - it is a consequence of adopting Hybrid AF - in my not so humble opinion this is the way of the future. The idea of PDAF sensors located separately from the sensor with potential alignment issues and having a separate sensor for metering - this all seems so archaic now.

[osv]

I would not give up the ability to use k mount lenses for a slightly thinner body.

you aren't giving up anything, you can put k-mount lenses on all of the nex bodies right now... no need to wait for pentax.

[mecrox]

For me, OVF is not an option (my eyes generally have problems focusing due to a problem caused by high cholesterol).

However, I am surprised that you think the options have not been explored.

EVF in a DSLR type body - check (Sony A-mount cameras)

EVF that can swivel - check (Sony EVF hotshoe attachment)

"EVF" completely separate from camera (Sony QX, kind of)

AF very good - check (Sony A6000 - easily the best AF out there at the moment, based on my experience)

Given that Pentax uses Sony sensors, there is no reason whatsoever that Pentax can't release a killer K-02. Even full frame if they wanted to. Heck they can even retain the K-01 design (I quite like it myself - it certainly looks different). But the K-S1 design is nice - they could also adopt that. I am not a fan of retro - Pentax can leave that to Fuji (one of the reasons I never buy Fuji).

To me, EVF is not necessarily a desirable attribute on it's own (my own eye issues notwithstanding and other advantages such as overlay information) - it is a consequence of adopting Hybrid AF - in my not so humble opinion this is the way of the future. The idea of PDAF sensors located separately from the sensor with potential alignment issues and having a separate sensor for metering - this all seems so archaic now.

High cholesterol, sigh, tell me about it.

I know that the options have been explored and continue to be but I never see these put to the front on marketing material, advertising and so forth where I live. The major factor is something else - fashion, size, retro, high-tech, pro or whatever. But then yesterday I saw someone taking a picture of their family with their DSLR and they were holding it at arm's length and using the rear LCD for composition. So whatever floats your boat. I don't think I would want Fuji either - the risk of seeing Zack Arias on their marketing material is too great - but the large VF in the X-T1 is a killer feature, imho

[philbaum]

The elephant in the room for the Canikon and Pentax is what to do about their legacy (current lenses) that are built to these long registration distances to allow mirror useage.

Meanwhile, while Canikon and Pentax dither, Fuji, Sony, Samsung, Olympus and Panasonic continue to improve and turn out ever more competiti ve mirrorless models. .

One thing that they could all do today, is to use their existing bodies but throw out the mirror boxes and put an EVF somewhere. That will save some weight and height probably. Put that model on line with the DSLRs and let the consumer decide which he or she wants to buy. Nice thing about mirrorless is that they don't have to calibrate the phase focus gear - no more micro adjustments for the end - user. And it should also cost less to manufacture. Eventually the mirrorless makers should be able to undercut the DSLR makers on cost and features, and then we can watch the house of cards fall where they may.

I'm not sure what the Canon non-announcement was for - perhaps a trial balloon?

[pinholecam]

Canon EOS mount being already electronic is better catered for MILC than Pentax/Nikon.
It says quite a bit if they need to explore a new mount.

I used to say that the A7 was a system w/o the lenses.
But I think after this photokina, it has enough lenses for 80-90% of what most generalist shooters do.
UWA - 16-35/4
wide - FE35/2.8
normal - FE55/1.8
Tele zoom - 70-200/4;
All round zooms - 28-75; 24-70/4

Whats lacking are fast short teles and perhaps macro lenses, both of which are easily adapted and no issues used manually.
The camera is not well designed for long lens work, so specialist have to choose something else (namely the DSLRs)


The A7/s/r camera (if not the lenses) have been selling immensely well here.
Seems like almost all brand guys have one either to lighten the load (Canikon) or for the FF (Pentax, m4/3 folks)
Maybe its a cultural, generational gap thing as the folks here accept EVF as fast as they rush for the new iPhone6.
No "I'm not sticking my eye on no EVF" type reluctance at all.
(Its a big multi brand forum here btw, with 3.5K view per day at least, so this is not some guy typing from Antarctica research base, population=1 )

On the aps-c front, the Fuji has made inroads for the enthusiast market (not so common on laymen though)
The lure of fast lenses catered for aps-c on a somewhat smaller package (esp for Canikon users; not as much for Pentax users)
The styling and so called 'Fuji colors' help too.


Smaller formats, RX100II, the new LX100 are really closing in.
LX100, m4/3 sensor with a nice lens thats 24-75 f1.7-2.8 , almost all that a general shooter needs on one camera.


The MILC threat to the status quo is big and will certainly get bigger.
Just a year ago, I would have thought that Pentax should stick to a K3 type DSLR FF for the selfish thought that I can use my K lenses on it.
Today, I do think they should go MILC, shorter flange distance and just provide me with an AF adapter (aesthetics be damned).
The K01 concept can work too, but the special lenses that recess inside the mirror box area have to be launched at the same time to attract attention. (and it needs an EVF)


If history is a guide, then it has shown that lagging far behind with new implementations is to the detriment of the brand.
Slow to adopt the bayonet mount; late to AF; late to digital.
So here we are now.

[philbaum]

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it" We are just going through a period where the PS market is collapsing due to customers choosing smart phone cameras over compact cameras. As far as i know, no camera mfr predicted this collapse.

Somehow, the traditional camera makers seem convinced that the PS market collapse was an isolated aberation, it won't happen again. Somehow they are convinced that lightening won't strike twice in the same place.

i'm not so sure. Perhaps the same generations that chose the smart phone over PS cameras, may chose a different alternative to conventional DSLRs. At least Canon seems to have gotten a little nervous about not developing alternatives.

[thibs]

Well sometimes it also swings back and forth.
At a time, only SLRs were present on the market. Then, SLRs had to give up most of their market for P&S.
Then SLR came back because price diminished. etc etc.

We'll see but things often aren't as easy to read as we think they are.

I'm considering an alternative to my DSLR and to my 4x5, my LX3 being a bit old.
Not taking money in consideration, I'd probably go with an LX100, right now.

[Christine Tham]

Perhaps we may see something from Canon Real Soon Now:
Photokina 2014: Canon interview - Mirrorless 'in the very near future': Digital Photography Review

If this quote is true, this could be very exciting:

In the very near future you can expect us to show something in terms of mirrorless and also a higher resolution sensor.