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11-11-2014, 11:29 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by axelm7 Quote
Camera stores and electtronics stores in general are still big players towards determining the success of a brand's products. Would you not agree that Pentax would be more successful if its cameras were sold alongside Canikon and Sony everywhere they're sold?


I do believe Samsung is making a pretty big statement with the NX. The three pro lenses they're offering for it also show that they're committed to the future of the system, unlike Canon's half-assed attempts at going mirrorless. You're spot-on about Fujis, everyone I know that has one uses them as backup, vacation, or walkaround cameras.
They would, but I believe camera stores and big box stores have more influence on beginners than on professionals who would do more research when buying their camera. Of course often times they start as beginners, that might cluelessly bumble into a camera store and get something that is there. Samsung is very well placed in any case, the NX1 is such a leap ahead that they draw plenty of attention... and they have quite a retail presence. If the tech in the NX1 trickles down to lesser models, and why wouldn't it, they have quite a couple of winners there. I could imagine a smaller, less solid built WR-free entry level NX1 for example...


Also the NX1 can sell on features and capabilities, Pentax sells on haptics (IMHO). Pentax cameras feel great in the hand and are wonderful to use (for stills). They need to be in shops to sell, because that's where they shine. Everything else is a bit average IMHO.


Basically Samsung has the retail presence to make a difference (Pentax doesn't), they have the technical knowledge and expertise and produce everything themselves, they are not afraid to experiment and innovate (even less so than Sony I'd say), they have a lot of name recognition and they have huge marketing budgets if needed and they have a lot of money and breath. They killed the established players in the phone market, that have been there long before them... and they can do the same for cameras.

11-11-2014, 11:56 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
They would, but I believe camera stores and big box stores have more influence on beginners than on professionals who would do more research when buying their camera. Of course often times they start as beginners, that might cluelessly bumble into a camera store and get something that is there. Samsung is very well placed in any case, the NX1 is such a leap ahead that they draw plenty of attention... and they have quite a retail presence. If the tech in the NX1 trickles down to lesser models, and why wouldn't it, they have quite a couple of winners there. I could imagine a smaller, less solid built WR-free entry level NX1 for example...


Also the NX1 can sell on features and capabilities, Pentax sells on haptics (IMHO). Pentax cameras feel great in the hand and are wonderful to use (for stills). They need to be in shops to sell, because that's where they shine. Everything else is a bit average IMHO.


Basically Samsung has the retail presence to make a difference (Pentax doesn't), they have the technical knowledge and expertise and produce everything themselves, they are not afraid to experiment and innovate (even less so than Sony I'd say), they have a lot of name recognition and they have huge marketing budgets if needed and they have a lot of money and breath. They killed the established players in the phone market, that have been there long before them... and they can do the same for cameras.


Couldn't have said it better. I disagree about Pentax having haptics as their only strength, but it is one of their main advantages over other bodies.


Also, you said it yourself, stores play a huge part in which brands beginners will invest on. I think Pentax already caters to the hobbyists and professionals looking for specific features for good prices, but their entry level bodies are so ahead of the beginner choices produces by all other brands. I think having them in stores should be Pentax's number one priority when it comes to product distribution. If you manage to convince a beginner with serious photography goals to buy a Pentax body for their fisrt DSLR, they've invested in the system and they will likely stay loyal to the brand as their skills and needs progress, just like it is with Canon and Nikon. Eventually that might also make a stronger case for a Pentax FF camera.
11-11-2014, 12:07 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by axelm7 Quote
Couldn't have said it better. I disagree about Pentax having haptics as their only strength, but it is one of their main advantages over other bodies.


Also, you said it yourself, stores play a huge part in which brands beginners will invest on. I think Pentax already caters to the hobbyists and professionals looking for specific features for good prices, but their entry level bodies are so ahead of the beginner choices produces by all other brands. I think having them in stores should be Pentax's number one priority when it comes to product distribution. If you manage to convince a beginner with serious photography goals to buy a Pentax body for their fisrt DSLR, they've invested in the system and they will likely stay loyal to the brand as their skills and needs progress, just like it is with Canon and Nikon. Eventually that might also make a stronger case for a Pentax FF camera.
Yup. But at this point beginners might inform themselves on the internet about the camera they might buy, and then they'll read that the camera isn't recommended for video. Especially beginners might think... I don't plan to shoot video, but... what if? At least I'd like to try it, and it'd be good if the camera was good at it too... Or they look at what "pros" use, and that tends to be Canikon, and increasingly Sony and Panasonic, and in future Samsung perhaps, while Pentax just isn't too attractive to the pro market (no FF, not that good video). That might hurt them too.
11-11-2014, 12:11 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
OTOH, if Nikon scale it up to larger sensors then I guess it might have least proved a very effective if very expensive test bed.
If Nikon took the V3 technology and paired with the full frame sensor from the A7s and add 4K video, it could be a very interesting camera.

But Sony has yet to produce a version of that sensor with PDAF pixels - and that will probably appear on a Sony camera first.

Nikon is probably waiting.

11-11-2014, 12:19 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
If Nikon took the V3 technology and paired with the full frame sensor from the A7s and add 4K video, it could be a very interesting camera.

But Sony has yet to produce a version of that sensor with PDAF pixels - and that will probably appear on a Sony camera first.

Nikon is probably waiting.
Yup, brands like Sony, and perhaps Samsung now, want to keep their _great_ sensors to themselves in order to sell their own cameras. Only after they enjoyed that advantage for a while will they sell those sensors to other brands. For sensors that are nothing special they won't wait. Particularly the a7S sensor will stay a Sony exclusive. That much Sony has said in a recent interview. In the end, Sony and Samsung would rather sell you a camera, rather than a sensor for your x-brand camera. More profit...?
11-11-2014, 01:05 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
They would, but I believe camera stores and big box stores have more influence on beginners than on professionals who would do more research when buying their camera. Of course often times they start as beginners, that might cluelessly bumble into a camera store and get something that is there. Samsung is very well placed in any case, the NX1 is such a leap ahead that they draw plenty of attention... and they have quite a retail presence. If the tech in the NX1 trickles down to lesser models, and why wouldn't it, they have quite a couple of winners there. I could imagine a smaller, less solid built WR-free entry level NX1 for example...


Also the NX1 can sell on features and capabilities, Pentax sells on haptics (IMHO). Pentax cameras feel great in the hand and are wonderful to use (for stills). They need to be in shops to sell, because that's where they shine. Everything else is a bit average IMHO.


Basically Samsung has the retail presence to make a difference (Pentax doesn't), they have the technical knowledge and expertise and produce everything themselves, they are not afraid to experiment and innovate (even less so than Sony I'd say), they have a lot of name recognition and they have huge marketing budgets if needed and they have a lot of money and breath. They killed the established players in the phone market, that have been there long before them... and they can do the same for cameras.
Samsung seem to have a lot of the bits and pieces required to be a full player in the camera market and their cameras do seem to get a pretty favourable reception, but at least where I live they haven't (yet) put it all together and marketed themselves aggressively as something to set beside the established and well-known players. So, Samsung products tend not to appear among "popular brands" lists or towards the top of Amazon bestsellers or wish lists for cameras, for example - here at least. I don't doubt their technical capability or resources, but there is a big difference between that and being out there as the kind of brand folks reach for and always have on their list of things to examine and so forth when looking for a camera. Maybe Samsung will do this, maybe they won't. Or maybe they will only do it in certain territories and leave the others fallow. Still to early to tell perhaps. TBH, it sounds as if it is too early to tell how the NX1 will really pan out in practice though it does mark a move into the higher end, away from the mid and lower ends. I guess you could say Samsung are starting to get some kick-ass products in their portfolio (if the NX1 pans out and more products flow from the idea). Could be great or not so good once it's been in enough people's hands. I doubt marketing is instant; probably it takes a while to establish the right image and draw people to you. That and a great deal of the folding stuff which is another consideration since (if I recall correctly) Samsung's recent financial returns have not been stellar. In the meantime the other big players aren't going to do nothing, so in the end we'll likely all see an increase in the blending of cameras and high-power mobile tech.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about the NX1. As an alternative to going FF, it does sound pretty tempting.

Last edited by mecrox; 11-11-2014 at 01:14 PM.
11-11-2014, 01:12 PM   #37
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Samsung has been struggling as flagship phones aren't that much better than more mid level ones anymore, and they are getting plenty of competition from China. Chinese phones, at least those by some brands, are really good. I have a Xiaomi, which is the 3rd or 4th best selling brand in the world, despite being unavailable in most of the world. And it is a seriously good phone, can compete with flagship phones, despite costing 1/2 to 1/3. Their cash cow is breaking away, so they might want to move into another profitable area they can do well in. Also they can use their camera business to advertise their phones, if the cameras do well.


Samsung cameras so far have mostly been me-too affairs, quite decent and competitive, but not standing out, and brands that aren't the default brand for people that need a camera need to stand out in order to draw sales... (Pentax tries this by doing colors). The NX1 does stand out.

11-11-2014, 02:12 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Professionals will get what does the job, and it seems that at least in the videography area the NX1 has stirred up a lot of interest. If it can deliver on it's promise Samsung will be struggling to keep up with demand. And camera stores... how important are they really these days? Online shopping, anyone? Samsung will be offering lower end alternatives to the NX1 that will do quite well in big box stores, and people will have an upgrade path.


It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, but Fuji seems to be and stay a side player... their cameras will be found in many photographers bags, but as their walk around camera, not the main camera. I'd like to have a Fuji, but not as my only camera.


Also, isn't Sony doing rather well for being a newcomer in the camera business?
A friend of mine has hi 5DII die on him the night before a wedding. He called his local rep on a Friday night. His rep went in and got him a new 5DIII to shoot the next day. He had his 5DII repaired and keeps it as a back up. Professionals do care a lot about the local support and stores. I buy 50% on line and 50% at the store. PCB is local, so all my lights are Einsteins.

The Samsung is stirring up a lot of interest for the technology that it brings to the table. It looks like a great camera, but Samsung is not in a position to support working professionals, so we will watch with interest and wait for other camera companies to advance.

Sony bought Minolta who is by no means a new comer. It has been almost 10 years since Sony bought Minolta and they are just now getting to the point where they are rolling out Professional services for working photographers. Sony thought they could bring the substantial resources to the camera industry and be one of the top 2 players in 2-3 years. Sony brought a lot of technology and marketing at the camera business, but only recently started to make cameras that really appealed to professional photographers.

Take firmware for example. When asked about firmware updates for the A900 a senior Sony marketing executive said that they considered the A900 a "finished product", meaning they didn't plan on releasing any firmware updates for cameras once they were released. Sony didn't understand the expectations of photographers. They had a consumer electronics mindset. Sony is JUST now figuring out the expectations of photographers.

Fuji is still a niche line, like Pentax. but http://petapixel.com/2014/11/06/mass-exodus-continues-one-photographer-ditched-nikon-fuji/ They are doing a hell of a job marketing to professionals and bloggers/internet writers. If Ricoh doesn't get busy, Fuji will pass them in market share for the higher end enthusiasts soon.

Last edited by Winder; 11-11-2014 at 02:30 PM.
11-11-2014, 02:45 PM   #39
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Fair enough. We'll see if Samsung learns from Sony's mistake.


Pentax does not update firmwares in a significant way... they do updates to fix bugs, sometimes, and they do them to support new products like lenses, tele converters etc. But apart from that? I don't see much happening. Olympus, yes. Fuji, yes. Canon, yes. Nikon probably too. And Panasonic. But Pentax seems quite... well, they don't improve products once launched. At least I have no expectation of them doing that whatsoever.


Fuji has a product that is very different from what other brands offer, from where these photographers come from. Pentax is different too, but to a much lesser extent. They make smaller, lighter DSLRs that are WR, but they are still DSLRs, and constrained by that. Switching from Nikon or Canon to Pentax doesn't mean a big change, so why bother? Fuji is more or less offering Leica cameras at a significantly lower price (yes, perhaps not that good, but good enough).
11-11-2014, 04:36 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
A friend of mine has hi 5DII die on him the night before a wedding. He called his local rep on a Friday night. His rep went in and got him a new 5DIII to shoot the next day. He had his 5DII repaired and keeps it as a back up. Professionals do care a lot about the local support and stores. I buy 50% on line and 50% at the store. PCB is local, so all my lights are Einsteins.

The Samsung is stirring up a lot of interest for the technology that it brings to the table. It looks like a great camera, but Samsung is not in a position to support working professionals, so we will watch with interest and wait for other camera companies to advance.

Sony bought Minolta who is by no means a new comer. It has been almost 10 years since Sony bought Minolta and they are just now getting to the point where they are rolling out Professional services for working photographers. Sony thought they could bring the substantial resources to the camera industry and be one of the top 2 players in 2-3 years. Sony brought a lot of technology and marketing at the camera business, but only recently started to make cameras that really appealed to professional photographers.

Take firmware for example. When asked about firmware updates for the A900 a senior Sony marketing executive said that they considered the A900 a "finished product", meaning they didn't plan on releasing any firmware updates for cameras once they were released. Sony didn't understand the expectations of photographers. They had a consumer electronics mindset. Sony is JUST now figuring out the expectations of photographers.

Fuji is still a niche line, like Pentax. but The Exodus Continues: Why One Photographer Ditched Nikon for Fuji They are doing a hell of a job marketing to professionals and bloggers/internet writers. If Ricoh doesn't get busy, Fuji will pass them in market share for the higher end enthusiasts soon.
Interestingly, that site you reference (Peta Pixel) has an article about a new round of Sony A7 series FF cameras due to appear early next year (a rumour at this stage natch though it looks quite a well-informed one). The rumour mentions a new "pro" range, which opens a large can of worms since no one really seems sure what that means anymore, though Sony have announced their own pro support program recently, but I guess the point here is that whatever standout ideas are in the Samsung NX1 may soon be in a Sony camera courtesy of their own silicon somewhere near you in three or four months from now. If Canon then come in with a serious effort in large-format mirrorless in 2015, which I think their head honcho has hinted at, then next year might be the year in which the balance of the the industry moved a decisive step beyond ye olde DSLR, good workhorse though it has been and still will be for quite a while, just a bit less so
11-11-2014, 07:01 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Fair enough. We'll see if Samsung learns from Sony's mistake.


Pentax does not update firmwares in a significant way... they do updates to fix bugs, sometimes, and they do them to support new products like lenses, tele converters etc. But apart from that? I don't see much happening. Olympus, yes. Fuji, yes. Canon, yes. Nikon probably too. And Panasonic. But Pentax seems quite... well, they don't improve products once launched. At least I have no expectation of them doing that whatsoever.


Fuji has a product that is very different from what other brands offer, from where these photographers come from. Pentax is different too, but to a much lesser extent. They make smaller, lighter DSLRs that are WR, but they are still DSLRs, and constrained by that. Switching from Nikon or Canon to Pentax doesn't mean a big change, so why bother? Fuji is more or less offering Leica cameras at a significantly lower price (yes, perhaps not that good, but good enough).
Previously manufacturers were using very dedicated hardware which limited what you could do with firmware. We are just now seeing the switch to more flexible multi-core ARM processors.
Photokina Q&A: Can the Samsung NX1 redefine pro performance with a quantum leap in technology?

The new Sony Pro FE mount is expected to be fully programmable. With the exception of the menu button, every button and dial will be programmable. Previously all controls were hard, and now they will be soft. The Samsung NX-1 is really just the first in a coming wave of mirrorless cameras that will see huge steps forward in processing power.
11-11-2014, 09:14 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Interestingly, that site you reference (Peta Pixel) has an article about a new round of Sony A7 series FF cameras due to appear early next year (a rumour at this stage natch though it looks quite a well-informed one). The rumour mentions a new "pro" range, which opens a large can of worms since no one really seems sure what that means anymore, though Sony have announced their own pro support program recently, but I guess the point here is that whatever standout ideas are in the Samsung NX1 may soon be in a Sony camera courtesy of their own silicon somewhere near you in three or four months from now. If Canon then come in with a serious effort in large-format mirrorless in 2015, which I think their head honcho has hinted at, then next year might be the year in which the balance of the the industry moved a decisive step beyond ye olde DSLR, good workhorse though it has been and still will be for quite a while, just a bit less so
There's a number of things that Sony learned from their A7 models. If they did nothing else but fix these issues in the model, it would be success, IMO. The problem with the NX1 and Samsung FF at some point, who knows what issues haven't been identified yet. Course, that would apply to any new Canon or Pentax FF as well.
11-12-2014, 12:53 AM   #43
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Let's fast forward a few years.

Imagine a multi-layed sensor with full sensor readout on each colour layer, plus PDAF as a separate layer. All possible using multi-core processors (or even multi physical processors).

I imagine Sony has the technology capability to make that happen (they have already hinted they are producing such as sensor design). The main issue will be heat dissipation.

Samsung I think potentially also has the technology.

I think Canon and Nikon really should be thinking that far ahead. Producing another full frame mirrorless (even one using a Sony sensor) is not enough I think.
11-12-2014, 01:00 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Let's fast forward a few years.

Imagine a multi-layed sensor with full sensor readout on each colour layer, plus PDAF as a separate layer. All possible using multi-core processors (or even multi physical processors).

I imagine Sony has the technology capability to make that happen (they have already hinted they are producing such as sensor design). The main issue will be heat dissipation.

Samsung I think potentially also has the technology.

I think Canon and Nikon really should be thinking that far ahead. Producing another full frame mirrorless (even one using a Sony sensor) is not enough I think.
Well, if they can do all that, then they should certainly be able to provide a FF electronic shutter which operates faster than 1/30s, which someone posted is the time for the A7s to read its sensor. The rolling problem. Good times ahead!
11-12-2014, 03:24 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
With the exception of the menu button, every button and dial will be programmable. Previously all controls were hard, and now they will be soft.
Be careful what you wish for ... One of the justifiable criticisms of the ergonomics of some NEX designs were their over-reliance on soft vs hard controls. You don't want camera designers to push too much camera control into menus, or touch screens, or just 4 body buttons with 18 possible functions each. Fuji's designs are popular because they acknowledge the merits of straight-forward hard controls.
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