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11-13-2014, 02:57 AM   #1
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New sensor revolution from Sony!

Not sure if this belong in this forum, as I really hope Pentax is going to make good use of this new Sony sensor:

(SR4) Hot news! Sony revolutionizes the sensor world? Makes world’s first Active Pixel Color Sampling sensor (APCS). | sonyalpharumors


QuoteQuote:
Sony kills the long Bayer Sensor story:

If what you see here on top will become true than this will change the photography industry! Say goodbye to the classic RGB Bayer sensors because Sony is going to announce a new “Active-Pixel Color Sampling sensor (APCS)” in 2015! The specs sheet above shows the new 1.5 inch sensor with 4,8 million pixels. And I guess some of you would think that’s way to low but here comes the big news:

Every single pixel can take the full color info with the help of an electrified moving color filter!
How this works in detail is yet not described on that paper. But basically instead of having four pixels “RGBG” interpolated into one single pixel information (as it happens on usual Bayer sensors) every pixel on the APCS sensor grabs the full color information. On paper there is no need of interpolation (we still don’t know exactly how this works). But please keep in mind that in real world the difference may be much smaller (current RGB sensors indeed also uses all sort of interpolations to increase resolution).

This is a more advanced solution than Sigmas Foveon sensor used on DP cameras. Sigma uses three vertically ordered R-G-B layers. But also here you need to merge three pixel information into one and you also struggle with noise level because electrons get absorbed (or lost) on each layer.

Positive effects of such a sensor design are:
– Bigger pixels compared to same resolution Bayer sensor. This means more electrons captured and therefore higher dynamic range and lower noise (crazy ISO possible…even crazier than those of the Sony A7s).
– No moire issues anymore. No Anti Aliasing filter needed (increases per pixel sharpness).
– That tech also allows to make crazy high megapixel sensor. For example if you keep an Sony’s APCS pixel size same as the current Sony A7r 36MP RGB pixel size sensor you could in theory make a much higher resolution sensor with same noise level.
– Less pixels to read means also faster processing and readout.
– You actually can have a “full-monochrome” sensor
Other key features of the new APCS sensor:
– Electronic Global shutter. No more “jello” effect on videos!
– Records 2K with 16,000 frames per second (processor doesn’t have to be interpolate between RGBG pixels and therefore can use full power to read out more frames per second!). Note that the current Arri Phantom Flex shoots 4K at 1,000 frames per second.
When are we going to see that sensor?
I believe that sensor will make it into a Z4 phone first. “Classic” Alpha photocameras will get the same sensor tech on APS-C and FF sensors later!
What I know beside that spec sheet:
Trusted sources told me “complete new” sensor tech would be introduced on the verge between end 2015 and early 2016. I also saw plenty of sensors describing such kind of pixels with electronic color filter. I will now try to collect some of them to show them to you in a future post. So while I posted this rumor with an SR4 ranking only (see ranking description below) I have a strong feeling this rumor is true. I will wait for my trusted sources to upgrade this to SR5 as soon as I can!








Fun times ahead...

11-13-2014, 03:04 AM   #2
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The quoted article looks like it was written by a hyperactive teenager.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
single pixel can take the full color info with the help of an electrified moving color filter!
Wonderful, one more electronic component that can fail.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Electronic Global shutter. No more “jello” effect on videos!
Those colour filters would have to move bloody fast to accomplish this, t=1 times on flash units can be extremely fast. There will probably be a limit on how fast sync speeds can be without artifacts being introduced.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Less pixels to read means also faster processing and readout
But there would be more information per-pixel. so fundamentally there will be no difference.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Records 2K with 16,000 frames per second (processor doesn’t have to be interpolate between RGBG pixels and therefore can use full power to read out more frames per second!). Note that the current Arri Phantom Flex shoots 4K at 1,000 frames per second.
Those frame rates are beyond the capacity of current codecs - not to mention storage media, and don't expect AF with movie recording. Also, the Arri Phantom 640 flex has a RRP in the vicinity of $150,000 US.

Last edited by Digitalis; 11-13-2014 at 03:19 AM.
11-13-2014, 03:31 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
This looks like it was written by a hyperactive teenager.
LOL! I think it is, but he's doing an excellent job keeping track of all kinds of rumors. And he's often right.


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Wonderful, one more electronic component that can fail.
True, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Those colour filters would have to move bloody fast to accomplish this, t=1 times on flash units can be extremely fast.
I don't think we can jump to conclusions if we don't know how it works.


Anyway, I'm looking forward to is the promiss of even more dynamic range & true monochrome recording.
11-13-2014, 04:21 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
true monochrome recording.
The Leica monochrom can do that, you can go out an buy one today. And with th eM mount there is more variety with lenses and their quality is superior than the re-branded trash sony comes out with.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Bigger pixels compared to same resolution Bayer sensor. This means more electrons captured and therefore higher dynamic range and lower noise
The averaged quantum efficiency of DSLR sensors over the past 5 years is somewhere in the vicinity of 38%. The Colour filter array is the biggest problem with QE, removing CFA pushes the QE to much higher levels. If the sensor is left unaltered, its base sensitivity will be approximately one stop (+/-) higher than normal - but the noise will be the same as the initial base ISO with the CFA. To push QE to 50% and higher with a CFA requires a massive leap in technology - and to have so little evidence of such advances I have to say i'm very skeptical.


Last edited by Digitalis; 11-13-2014 at 04:33 AM.
11-13-2014, 04:22 AM   #5
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Sony has a good track record with bringing new technology to the market. However, this does not mean that all of them become commercially viable in a mass production environment. At best it will be a while, and if it arrives at all, it will probably be "different" with various "limitations" along with a set of unique strengths and weaknesses. Also, there is no information on production or support costs for this technology. It's interesting, but nothing to hold your breath over. If it comes to fruition - it will be a while.

11-13-2014, 04:35 AM   #6
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This sounds very interesting. There is a lot of new types of sensor technology that will soon be available. I get the feeling the next few years will be interesting ones. But one thing that will never change is the most important sensor is the photographer's eyes.
11-13-2014, 05:14 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Sony has a good track record with bringing new technology to the market. However, this does not mean that all of them become commercially viable in a mass production environment. At best it will be a while, and if it arrives at all, it will probably be "different" with various "limitations" along with a set of unique strengths and weaknesses. Also, there is no information on production or support costs for this technology. It's interesting, but nothing to hold your breath over. If it comes to fruition - it will be a while.
The K-5 sensor was also a quantum leap in quality. Especially in dynamic range. That didn't take so long from rumor to fruition.
11-13-2014, 05:15 AM   #8
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Yawn.

Wake me up when all this fancy stuff shows up in a production DSLR or even a mobile.

---------- Post added 2014-11-13 at 11:18 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The K-5 sensor was also a quantum leap in quality. Especially in dynamic range. That didn't take so long from rumor to fruition.
Not really. With all due respect to the K-5, it was not a new sensor (Sony and even Nikon were already using it before the K-5), and it wasn't a quantum leap in DR. Just look at the dxomark scores for cameras before and after the K-5.

11-13-2014, 05:26 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The Leica monochrom can do that, you can go out an buy one today. And with th eM mount there is more variety with lenses and their quality is superior than the re-branded trash sony comes out with.
You don't see the difference a consumer grade APS-C camera - with Sony's new sensor - that can do true monochrome as an aside and buying a dedicated terribly expensive outdated camera that can only do true monochrome?



QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The averaged quantum efficiency of DSLR sensors over the past 5 years is somewhere in the vicinity of 38%. The Colour filter array is the biggest problem with QE, removing CFA pushes the QE to much higher levels. If the sensor is left unaltered, its base sensitivity will be approximately one stop (+/-) higher than normal - but the noise will be the same as the initial base ISO with the CFA. To push QE to 50% and higher with a CFA requires a massive leap in technology - and to have so little evidence of such advances I have to say i'm very skeptical.
We don't know exactly how the new techology works. That includes you. I'm not going to jump to uninformed conclusion. Only to the fact that this would be a very nice technology if it comes to fruition.
11-13-2014, 11:34 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The quoted article looks like it was written by a hyperactive teenager.
lol! quote of month winner!

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Those frame rates are beyond the capacity of current codecs - not to mention storage media.
it's beyond the capacity of most encoders known to man, and yes, even if it could be encoded, how would it get written to the storage media, the data rate would be insane... "Records 2K with 16,000 frames per second", claims that it's a function of the sensor, which is impossible, because sensors don't record video.

those sar idiots don't have the slightest idea how technology works.
11-13-2014, 03:49 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
We don't know exactly how the new techology works. That includes you. I'm not going to jump to uninformed conclusion. Only to the fact that this would be a very nice technology if it comes to fruition.
But we do understand physics. New technology is often (almost always?) hyped as bringing incredible advances since the new device apparently is no longer constrained by the laws of physics. Not often (never) does it really play out so nicely.
11-13-2014, 05:41 PM - 1 Like   #12
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I will look forward to using this sensor on a perfume shaped selfie camera marketed to Asian women.
11-13-2014, 05:52 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
I will look forward to using this sensor on a perfume shaped selfie camera marketed to Asian women.
It must be annoying to be stereotyped in such a manner by a corporation like that..but that is what sony* does best.

*My Android tablet PC autocorrected the name "sony" to "nosy" well played android....well played.
11-14-2014, 06:23 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
But we do understand physics. New technology is often (almost always?) hyped as bringing incredible advances since the new device apparently is no longer constrained by the laws of physics. Not often (never) does it really play out so nicely.
Exactly... A bit like how photographing without an anti-aliasing filter would always produce Moiré. Simple law of physics, no way to overcome that, sceptics were quick to point out. You'd always need a seperate camera to do that specilistic niche work. But a small company that thought outside the box used the laws of physics to develop something smart.

I've been amazed by a lot of recent technological advancements. So, I should be ready for more.
11-14-2014, 06:46 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I've been amazed by a lot of recent technological advancements. So, I should be ready for more.
Yes, but tech advances don't always turn into saleable products.

Once the guys from the Lab turn their latest baby over to corporate and marketing, great tech can often die, because (for example) marketing decides no one will buy the stuff, or corporate decides it's simply too expensive to produce relative to any new sales it might generate.
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