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11-21-2014, 11:13 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
If you recall, the gist of my original post was - if you want 2.8 zooms, buy something other than Sony.

But that's when you started your "politely disagree" post.

So does that mean you were politely agreeing all along? :-)
My mind was really on whether i was going to buy this camera, not on the debate side of things. For the live theater shooting i do, on an official basis, i can't get along without a native fast focusing f2.8 lens. And i feel that Sony will eventually "probably" build them. But i don't buy cameras on a "probably". Nevertheless, kudos to Sony on this camera, it hits a lot of marks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Alpha 7 II is indeed weather sealed, see the top right picture on the slide below, which was shown yesterday during Alpha 7 II's official presentation in Tokyo.

The title of the slide means "Other areas of improvement".
Thanks for the confirmation. Its a cool camera.


QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
with sony you can mount f/2.8 lenses from a bunch of manufacturers, and use 'em in manual mode.
so the f/2.8 glass choices are far better than anything that you'll ever get with pentax; you can pick and choose from the best on the market.

the problem here is that you insist on only shooting in spray 'n pray mode, which is rigid inflexible thinking.

if you refuse to use manual focus, why is it the fault of sony? it's your personal hangup, not something that sony did.
You really know nothing about my shooting needs. I will often manually focus lenses when i shoot with either of my Nex cameras, and enjoy the experience. But about 10 times a year, i shoot live action play dress rehearsals. For about 90 min, i will shoot about 400 shots, none are spray shots. Manual focus for live action shooting just can't keep up. Different horses for different courses.

The Pentax K3 is deadly in its focus capability, even at low light where its rated at -3ev compared to this new Sony which is rated at -1ev. But the low light noise levels of the Pentax K3 are not going to be as good as the Sony-thats where my interest is. Despite what Christine says, i think Sony will eventually build some f2.8 native zooms for its FE cameras, but maybe not.

11-21-2014, 11:22 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
I don't need it.

It adds weight and size.

Plus there is the possibility of blurring due to over-corrective action. Pentax recommends turning off IBIS when camera mounted on tripod.
- Simply turn it off.. But the question is, will it be easy to access its menu to turn the IBIS on and off?
- Weight (inc. batteries): A7 (474 g), A7II (599 g) = Only 125 grams added. The additional weight (which is not that heavy) comes not only from IBIS but also from its new solid metal mount, magnesium alloy body similar from A7r's construction. Its difference of size is not that huge either (A7II = 5 x 3.78 x 2.36″ VS A7 = 5 x 3.7 x 1.89″). If we think of it, A7II is still the smallest and lightest full frame camera that still offers a lot of features.
- About IBIS on tripod, that's true, but also from all other camera manufacturers.

IBIS is a good friend that's there and available to help a lot of photographers when one needs more stabilization in situations like of not having a tripod, or having a shaky hands, or when in a challenging lighting situation and doesn't have a fast lens, and many more possible reasons.
For me, I really wanted to buy the A7 since then because of its size and for my Pentax lenses, but the lack of IBIS is making me think twice. That doesn't mean that I can't take a good photo for not having an IBIS, I have been shooting without it since I was using film cameras up to my Pentax DSLRs that doesn't have SR. Using IBIS has always greatly helped me several times from several different reasons and situations.
My great concern from this camera would be its battery. Yes, all those features are power hog, but I hope Sony would make a better battery. A new optional compact and just plain battery pack (no vertical grip and shutter to trim down its size) for this camera would be a great accessory...

Cheers!

Last edited by richard balonglong; 11-21-2014 at 11:32 AM.
11-21-2014, 11:22 AM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
How true! I often get the feeling Sony researches on internet fora, including this one.
They do. But generally market research is done on specific groups. It's a lot easier to tap into a known prequalified source to get feedback because you then get consistency in your research.

I am a member of one such group (it's by invitation only) - that means I regularly participate in product feedback sessions, events where I have access to pre-release equipment, and product launches ... and occasionally parties (yay). They take the feedback very seriously - I mentioned earlier I have numerous experiences where it seems they have implemented everything we said to them.

Here's a photo from an event a few weeks ago - this is probably the largest event I have attended, usually they are smaller and more focused - this was an all out Sony extravaganza:


Of course, Sony isn't the only one doing this - Canon and Nikon have been doing this for years. I was invited to a Pentax event a few weeks ago - I declined because I had other commitments. Also I am a bit guilty because I am no longer an active Pentax photographer.

Last edited by Christine Tham; 11-21-2014 at 11:40 AM.
11-21-2014, 10:17 PM   #79
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I had a lunch today with a club member who has both the A7R and the A7S. The lunch was set up by another member, who like me, had an interest in Don's Sony collection. He had brought several lenses with him including the 70-200 F4, the 16-35 F4, a 30 or 35 prime F2.8 and a 55 f1.8. I also brought my Pentax k3 to the lunch for comparison sake.

Observations:
A. Overall, i think either camera makes an attractive package with the F4 zooms and a few faster primes. In the Cafe at roughly noon, my K3 optical viewfinder was a bit dim, the A7's EVF is bright, colorful, detailed, easy to look at.

B. The two A7's looked identical, one had to look at the label to find the varient. Both cameras were lighter and smaller than the K3.

C. The zoom lenses in general and the 70-200 specifically seemed surprisingly small and lightweight. The combination of F4 aperture, a small mirrorless registration distance, and maybe fewer corrective elements achieved remarkable reductions in weight.

D. Shutter noise: The A7s was totally quiet with the electronic shutter on. The A7R's shutter is loud. Its not an unpleasant sound or harsh, but its definitely there. I've heard the same thing about the D800 cameras. With larger sensors, the mechanical shutters have to be larger as well and perhaps that leads to greater noise. Don related that when he used the A7R to photo the kids in his grand daughter's class, all the kids looked around at the same time.

If you have an opportunity to see these A7's in person, the experience is worth it - a remarkable achievement.

11-21-2014, 10:59 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
My mind was really on whether i was going to buy this camera, not on the debate side of things. For the live theater shooting i do, on an official basis, i can't get along without a native fast focusing f2.8 lens. And i feel that Sony will eventually "probably" build them. But i don't buy cameras on a "probably". Nevertheless, kudos to Sony on this camera, it hits a lot of marks.
Fair enough.

But it kind of came across as:

"I want f2.8 zooms.

But I don't have time to tell Sony that because I am too busy as the president of a camera club, so Sony need to be smart enough to figure it out.

And if Sony isn't smart enough, then I will vote with my money and buy Fuji or Pentax."

(Even though neither of them have even announced a full frame camera)

How much time does it take to make a phone call or send an email with an enquiry?

Don't expect Sony to build lenses no one has asked for. Remember they already make A-mount f2.8 zooms, so they would probably expect anyone who shoots f2.8 zooms to use an A-mount camera, or E-mount camera with adapter.
11-21-2014, 11:48 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Fair enough.

But it kind of came across as:

"I want f2.8 zooms.

But I don't have time to tell Sony that because I am too busy as the president of a camera club, so Sony need to be smart enough to figure it out.

And if Sony isn't smart enough, then I will vote with my money and buy Fuji or Pentax."

(Even though neither of them have even announced a full frame camera)

How much time does it take to make a phone call or send an email with an enquiry?

Don't expect Sony to build lenses no one has asked for. Remember they already make A-mount f2.8 zooms, so they would probably expect anyone who shoots f2.8 zooms to use an A-mount camera, or E-mount camera with adapter.
Where do you get off telling me what to do? People make choices all the time and don't communicate their dislikes to the retail world. Thats life - get used to it.

I expect Sony, if they are a good retailer, to make inquiries, read forums like this, have focus groups, etc. They're adults, they can make good decisions or bad.

So now that you're a member of a Sony focus group, you feel you have the right to lecture the rest of us??
11-22-2014, 12:14 AM - 2 Likes   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Where do you get off telling me what to do? People make choices all the time and don't communicate their dislikes to the retail world. Thats life - get used to it.
Not telling you what to do at all. What you do or don't do of course is entirely up to you. Just pointing out that there are ways you can influence a manufacturer to make something you desire. If you are too busy or can't be bothered, then don't be surprised if what you wish for doesn't happen.

You clearly had time to write multiple posts expressing what you want. Surely copying and pasting them into an email to send to Sony would perhaps be more productive than expecting Sony to read posts on a Pentax forum?


Last edited by Christine Tham; 11-22-2014 at 12:23 AM.
11-22-2014, 01:15 AM   #83
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Does anyone think it's possible Ricoh and Sony may have done some cross-pollinating with IBIS and new sensor technology?
Maybe Sony got first dibs on the release....
11-22-2014, 02:46 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Does anyone think it's possible Ricoh and Sony may have done some cross-pollinating with IBIS and new sensor technology?
Maybe Sony got first dibs on the release....
But Sony and their partner Olympus both have IBIS heritage ...
11-22-2014, 03:35 AM   #85
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...and the 5-axis stabilisation is definitely in Olympus's heritage.
11-22-2014, 06:29 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
some cross-pollinating
In terms of patents, I bet there is a complex web of cross-licensing deals in place between Pentax, Minolta/Sony, Olympus, Nikon and others on image stabilisation. You could call that cross-pollination.
11-22-2014, 06:31 AM   #87
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As i recall, Sony donated (not sure that is the right word) a significant amount of money to keep Olympus afloat a coupla years ago. It takes a good deal of time to write code. Faster to just buy it A friend last year bought an Olympus m43 camera for a trip to Cuba, and said their 5-axis stabilization was awesome. So this is likely Olympus firmware derivative.
11-22-2014, 08:45 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In terms of patents, I bet there is a complex web of cross-licensing deals in place between Pentax, Minolta/Sony, Olympus, Nikon and others on image stabilisation. You could call that cross-pollination.
AFAIK Pentax was first using magnets/coils for sensor stabilization. Nowdays Olympus and Sony do it too (maybe also Panasonic).
I would not be surprised if some of Pentax SR patents are licenced from the other manufacturers.

Looking at the Sony design it look very close to Pentax design, and not as close to Olympus design.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/279...ml#post3032318
11-22-2014, 10:44 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Does anyone think it's possible Ricoh and Sony may have done some cross-pollinating with IBIS and new sensor technology?
Maybe Sony got first dibs on the release....
If they were working together I would expect to see the SR based AA filter feature in the Sony line. Sony says the 5-axis IBIS is their own design, but Nikon claims that they make all their own sensors too.

I would be willing to bet the IBIS is an Olympus design that Sony has modified to work with a larger sensor and with the FE-mount. I would also bet that Olympus is designing glass for the FE mount. Sony didn't just give Olympus $400 million out of the kindness. Sony was bleeding financially at the time of the investment, so they were expecting a quick return. For comparison Ricoh bought Pentax for less than half of the money Sony invested into Olympus.
11-22-2014, 11:34 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
(...) Sony didn't just give Olympus $400 million out of the kindness. Sony was bleeding financially at the time of the investment, so they were expecting a quick return. For comparison Ricoh bought Pentax for less than half of the money Sony invested into Olympus.
Comparison is no reason, as we say in French. The very profitable medical division was part of the Sony - Olympus deal but not of the Ricoh - Pentax deal: Hoya cleverly kept Pentax's medical division it for themselves.
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