[philbaum]

I'm hoping... there will be awesome sales on the A7s at some point... but it started so high, if there was an awesome sale, would I buy it, even discounted.

Yep, me too. It sort of got undercut by the 5 axis stabilization in the A7II. The reaction from many folks seem to be that they are waiting for the A7S II.

Sony may not be selling it to other mfr because they realize it may take awhile to refine it and/or so revolutionary that people need time to think about it.

@Christine: I think we'll see the 5-axis stabilization on the A7S long before we see the 4K recording in body. I would think the heat generation would be a difficult problem to overcome in such a small body. Either they build a larger body just for the A7S II or they build a 4K recorder accessory that would be cheaper than what's on the market now. I'm sure they realize what a "hot" product they have if they can just fit all the pieces together.

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Last edited by philbaum; 01-29-2015 at 12:27 PM.

[Christine Tham]

]I would think the heat generation would be a difficult problem to overcome in such a small body.

You might want to check out the size of the Go Pro HERO4 or the Panasonic GH4.

Anyway, Sony knows 4K recording is probably the biggest feature potential users are asking for. I have given them feedback face to face as well as in writing, as well as many others.

[philbaum]

You might want to check out the size of the Go Pro HERO4 or the Panasonic GH4.
.

You don't understand the problem. Larger sensors and chips necessary to process the larger files thereof, create heat problems not faced by small sensors in cameras like Go Pro and GH4. Its not because Sony designers and engineers were ignorant of what the customers wanted. In cameras that are closed up for water resistance, the problems become even worse than for say laptops and desktop computers. You must remember that even the Nex 5n with its APS sensor was heat limited to 30min of video until someone figured out that one could tilt the LCD away from the case while recording video so that the case was better cooled by ambient air.

[Digitalis]

You must remember that even the Nex 5n with its APS sensor was heat limited to 30min of video until someone figured out that one could tilt the LCD away from the case while recording video so that the case was better cooled by ambient air.

Wow Sony... really?

Larger sensors and chips necessary to process the larger files thereof, create heat problems not faced by small sensors in cameras like Go Pro and GH4.

There is also increasing problems with the built in A/D converters - these are on chip these days and they generate quite a bit of heat, along with AMP glow. Then there is the whole image generating pipeline that needs to be cooled. On High speed cameras, nearly half the mass of the units are for cooling hardware.

[Christine Tham]

You don't understand the problem. Larger sensors and chips necessary to process the larger files thereof, create heat problems not faced by small sensors in cameras like Go Pro and GH4.

Before you accuse others of not understanding the problem, maybe you should have checked out the specs as I suggested. Heat generation is partly driven by the data readout rate.

The A7s has a 12 megapixel sensor. The A7s is capable of outputting uncompressed 4K to an external recorder for extended periods of time.

The GH4 has a 16 megapixel sensor.

You do the math.

[Jonathan Mac]

I'd still be happy with 10MP. Imagine a 10MP sensor nowadays - the high ISO and frame rate would be out of this world.

[philbaum]

.
The A7s has a 12 megapixel sensor. The A7s is capable of outputting uncompressed 4K to an external recorder for extended periods of time.
.

The issue is not that the A7s is incapable of outputting 4K, its that it has to be recorded to an external recorder. You implied that the Sony engineers just sort of overlooked that might be an issue until you informed them of the problem face to face. I give the engineers more credit than you do. For an organization that has been manufacturing video devices for many years, the Sony design team must have had a reason to not include a recorder into the A7s. Perhaps they lost your phone number and couldn't consult

PS- See Digitalis comments about heat. This might be of more than passing interest, as it may affect the A7 series design going forward, and perhaps other FF 4K implementations as well. IIRC, neither Nikon or Canon ff can yet output and record 4K, i think.

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Last edited by philbaum; 01-29-2015 at 11:53 PM.

[cooltouch]

Ok, well if the consensus of this forum is any measure - and I believe it is - then it sounds like the next big technological hurdle to be overcome will be to produce a handheld still/video camera that will not just output but record (on board) 4k video, while still having enough megapixels to be saleable as a still camera. I suspect the manufacturers will be looking hard at 16mp chips for this. I also wouldn't be surprised if the unit were a bit on the bulky side to house all the necessary cooling gear. Hmm . . . You know, liquid cooling for pc's has become fairly commonplace. What's to stop them from using liquid cooling in a handheld device? The main advantage to liquid over air cooling is a much better temperature reduction per system volume, although not necessarily weight.

[Digitalis]

PS- See Digitalis comments about heat

She won't see, she has me on her ignore list. I'm crying all the way to the camera store to pick up a new Zeiss lens over that.

[Clavius]

Ok, well if the consensus of this forum is any measure - and I believe it is - then it sounds like the next big technological hurdle to be overcome will be to produce a handheld still/video camera that will not just output but record (on board) 4k video, while still having enough megapixels to be saleable as a still camera. I suspect the manufacturers will be looking hard at 16mp chips for this. I also wouldn't be surprised if the unit were a bit on the bulky side to house all the necessary cooling gear. Hmm . . . You know, liquid cooling for pc's has become fairly commonplace. What's to stop them from using liquid cooling in a handheld device? The main advantage to liquid over air cooling is a much better temperature reduction per system volume, although not necessarily weight.

The distinction between still and video camera is no longer technological. In the film age they were two completely different worlds, but that is no longer the case now. It's now always the same hardware doing another trick via software. So it's true that any high end camera should be able to do both. New photographers will expect it. (That's where DSLRs shoot themselves in the foot btw, with not having the video in the viewfinder.)

Liquid cooling seems like a good idea. But in computers the warm liquid is always transported to a cooling fan. That fan, with it's vibration, is not an option in cameras. Same goes for peltier cooling. The heat could be transported to the outer body of the camera though. Would be a nice cold weather-feature.

---------- Post added 30-01-15 at 10:50 ----------

Rumors on SAR now are that Sony is supplying the sensors for that new Canon 5Ds 50mp camera. Now wouldn't that be something...

[Digitalis]

But in computers the warm liquid is always transported to a cooling fan

*ahem* the coolant is transported to a radiator, which is cooled by a fan. Iarger fans can run at lower RPM which reduces noise and vibrations, also larger copper finned radiators are more efficient. Some Phase one digital backs have cooling fans - however these cameras for obvious reasons aren't recommended to be operated during inclement weather.

It would be possible to use a peltier heat pump connected to a metal like silver which could be used as an external surface on the camera - Silver transmits heat and is able to release it with a higher efficiency than copper or gold, however such a solution will likely be expensive - and add to the weight of a camera

Same goes for peltier cooling. The heat could be transported to the outer body of the camera though

Though peltier effect cooling is a power consuming process - and you have to be able to dump all the heat somewhere.

Rumors on SAR now are that Sony is supplying the sensors for that new Canon 5Ds 50mp camera

I'll believe that when I see it.

[altopiet]

Rumors on SAR now are that Sony is supplying the sensors for that new Canon 5Ds 50mp camera. Now wouldn't that be something...

I recently bought a Canon G7X compact camera with a new one inch sensor, and in quite a few reviews everyone seems to agree that it is the same Sony sensor that is used in the Sony RX 100M3....
"During an interview with dpreview Canon Managing Director and Chief Executive Masaya Maeda confirmed that recently announced Canon G7X sensor is not made by Canon." Canon G7 X Sensor is Not Made by Canon « NEW CAMERA
So is it possibly a change of direction for Canon regarding sensors? I don't know much about these kind of things, but surely it's not impossible...?

[Digitalis]

I recently bought a Canon G7X compact camera with a new one inch sensor, and in quite a few reviews everyone seems to agree that it is the same Sony sensor that is used in the Sony RX 100M3

Canon have nearly always used sony sensors in their P&S cameras- even with the G series, they have stated that on numerous occasions.

[altopiet]

Canon have nearly always used sony sensors in their P&S cameras- even with the G series, they have stated that on numerous occasions.

I see.... so it might come down to how cost effective it'll be for Canon to develop their own sensor, and if they think they can produce it in large enough numbers.... as Sony already have one, that I see Nikon might also use...?

I can see that the probability of Canon getting that dependant on Sony for sensors, might be small, but with the downturn in the world economy and reported heavy drop in sales of Canon products, although from a high base, who knows what the "businessmen" behind the company might decide...?

[Digitalis]

I think the reasons why Canon didn't produce sensors for their own P&S cameras is because they wanted to dedicate their own sensor fabrication plants to producing APS-C and Full frame chips.