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08-02-2015, 06:08 PM   #151
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Ian Norman / Lonely Speck has a nice review of the A7S, primary centered around landscape astro... There are two reviews - a full written review, and then a short YouTube video.




Last edited by interested_observer; 08-02-2015 at 06:21 PM.
08-02-2015, 06:44 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
he d800 has worse low light than my d600
Image noise is pretty much identical, so you must be talking about pixel noise.

Photographers are interested in how images look, not individual pixels. The D800 has more pixels so if you compare both cameras at 100% views then you are not making a fair comparison as the D800 will provide a higher magnification and more noise will be visible.

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
There is kind of a reason why the a7s is 12 megapixels.
Yes, it is optimised for video.

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
I highly doubt nikon said "hey lets make it so you cant print the D4s files at a higher size!"
That's right, they didn't say that.

Rather, they said "There are a lot of sports photographers and photojournalists out there who do not need 36MP, but rather a as high a frame rate as we can possibly give them. So let's keep the number of pixels low so that we can offer 11 fps rather than 5 fps.".

Please, larger pixels do not equate to better low-light performance.
08-03-2015, 02:20 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
It is, when you look at it at 100%. Unfortunately many do.

And to a certain degree it does, or did. There had to be some distance between each pixel. The micro lenses could help a bit, but not 100%. That meant the higher the resolution, the more space is wasted for wiring. That isn't the case anymore with BSI, which is why the sensor performs better.
08-03-2015, 03:27 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Au cobt
Please show me a 40 megapixel camera that outdoes 20 megapixel cameras for low light... I mean, you have medium format, but thats presumably reserved for people who shoot commercially or own gold plated chairs. The nikon d800 was the premier high megapixel camera for pros and enthusiasts for the past few years and that came with some pretty noticeable trade offs for low light. You have the 5dmkiii which is great in low light but has average megapixels, the d4 that has amazing low light but has pretty few megapixels, etc, This thing does both and it weighs half as much as my current setup prob. Still got my eye on the nx1, i think its a very neat cameras. But i think sonys other camera the rx10ii is very cool. Ever since i started shooting stills ive wanted a super slow mo camera and the most we've been getting has been 120 fps. I think sony has a really neat package with the rx10. We're getting a whopping 1000 fps for only $1300. The super slow mo is the only thing thats missing on the nx1. Rx10ii + a7ii seems like a valid reason to live off ramen noodles for a new months.
The D810 and D610 measure almost exactly the same with regard to both dynamic range and noise on DXO Mark graphs. This is using the "print" button, which is the only way to really consider these things. You have to assume your printing/viewing size remains constant in the comparison or the comparison doesn't make sense.

Too many people focus on per pixel noise/dynamic range, when that is pretty meaningless.

We'll see how the A7r II scores, but I bet it is pretty close to the other cameras in SNR, but is a better video machine.

08-03-2015, 05:01 AM   #155
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This discussion reminds me of ....


Just replace whatever they are talking about with camera names.....
08-03-2015, 07:16 AM   #156
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Okay Rondec and Class A, I agree there isn't much difference between large and small pixel sensors when we look at the SNR graphs, BUT: when you go to the Dynamic Range DXO graphs, you see a very significant difference in the low light areas, above 3200 iso with the A7S. One could credibly debate that dynamic range of a still photo or video is an important attribute of image quality, esp at high iso regions. Even the DF provides some signal above 25,600ISO, which small pixels cannot duplicate. My only point is that SNR is not the total story concerning the merits of large pixels.

Overall, this has been a great discussion regarding sensor design, much appreciated.


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08-03-2015, 08:06 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Okay Rondec and Class A, I agree there isn't much difference between large and small pixel sensors when we look at the SNR graphs, BUT: when you go to the Dynamic Range DXO graphs, you see a very significant difference in the low light areas, above 3200 iso with the A7S. One could credibly debate that dynamic range of a still photo or video is an important attribute of image quality, esp at high iso regions. Even the DF provides some signal above 25,600ISO, which small pixels cannot duplicate. My only point is that SNR is not the total story concerning the merits of large pixels.

Overall, this has been a great discussion regarding sensor design, much appreciated.


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I guess I see the difference as starting at iso 6400. with regard to dynamic range. I would prefer to have higher dynamic range in low iso (A7s is pretty poor there), but if you shoot high iso a lot then I could see how the A7s would make a difference.

If you look at the sports iso score (which is a composite of SNR and dynamic range), the A7s measures at 3702 and the A7r at 2746. That's a third of a stop. A real difference, but not as big as some folks would make it sound.

In the end, you aren't going to be shooting at iso 50,000 and printing really large with the A7s, regardless of the improved dynamic range.

08-03-2015, 10:56 AM   #158
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Well I've traded in my A7R and the remainder of my Nikon glass so didn't shell out any cash. Liking the camera so far. MUCH quieter than the mkI
08-03-2015, 11:08 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
Well I've traded in my A7R and the remainder of my Nikon glass so didn't shell out any cash. Liking the camera so far. MUCH quieter than the mkI
Oh cut it out and give us the low-down details :-) What lenses are you using, etc. How about a photo or two.
08-03-2015, 11:14 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Oh cut it out and give us the low-down details :-) What lenses are you using, etc. How about a photo or two.
Shooting right now with the 16-35 and 70-200. Operation is a little different from the mkI. A new button in the middle of the PASM is very useful as I often used to knock it on the original. Will download when I get home in an hour or so. Just on normal shutter though it is much quieter.

I've heard people bemoaning the lack of a touchscreen. I don't see the point since your finger will be larger than a single focus point on this camera anyway.
08-03-2015, 12:18 PM - 1 Like   #161
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I encourage you to shoot near dark rooms with the d800 or d750 and see if it can stand up to the a7s like it does here. You could never do the same thing with a d800, especially so easily and handlheld. Even if you brought along a tripod you would still have noise at longer exposures.
https://youtu.be/J9uBy8x5p7E?t=19m14s

The a7s isnt optimized for video. Thats being disingenuous. Traditionally slrs do on one or the other (canon with video and nikon with stills.) Sony delivers a package that shines in both. You would definitely be getting visible (image noise as you call it) in the d800. Shooting that handheld would probably require iso 16000 or 25k and in those kinds of dark conditions, there is no way the image would be usable. I dont understand this distinction between pixel noise and image noise anyway. Thats like making a distinction between historical science and observational science.. Dont sue me bill nye. Sure, with film era isos the differences may only be visible at 100% but at iso 25600 (which is strongly suspect he is using) zooming out isnt going to make the image more usable. Its going to be just as noisy zoomed in as its zoomed out. And the d600 is atleast a stop or two better than the d800.


Here is another comparison

D800 is unusable where the other two ones continue to do well. Even in a well lit, non real world situation, the a7s has a 3-4 stop advantage over the d800. The differences would be even more pronounced in the low light conditions jason shot with in the above video. It would probably be more along the lines of a whopping 5 or 6 stops. Why do you think full frame is known for its advantage in low light? Do you think its just a coincidence that bigger pixels result in better low light?
08-03-2015, 12:29 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
Shooting right now with the 16-35 and 70-200. Operation is a little different from the mkI. A new button in the middle of the PASM is very useful as I often used to knock it on the original. Will download when I get home in an hour or so. Just on normal shutter though it is much quieter.

I've heard people bemoaning the lack of a touchscreen. I don't see the point since your finger will be larger than a single focus point on this camera anyway.
Hm. I think you can be precise enough with a modern touchscreen. I am on my phone. If you have many focus points, selecting them with a 4 way selector will be hard.

Sorry if you have mentioned it in your video, I just didn't have proper internet for 20 minutes. But how is the Canon easier for video?
08-03-2015, 12:32 PM   #163
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A touch screen is much faster too. You can set your focus point in a fraction of a second unlike with a traditional system where you have to hope from one focus point to the other.
08-03-2015, 12:44 PM   #164
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08-03-2015, 01:47 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Hm. I think you can be precise enough with a modern touchscreen. I am on my phone. If you have many focus points, selecting them with a 4 way selector will be hard.

Sorry if you have mentioned it in your video, I just didn't have proper internet for 20 minutes. But how is the Canon easier for video?
what even if your finger is about 3 times the size of the focus point on the screen?

I haven't used any video, so you must be referring to someone else there, and haven't used a Canon for a long time and never for video.

---------- Post added 08-03-15 at 02:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
A touch screen is much faster too. You can set your focus point in a fraction of a second unlike with a traditional system where you have to hope from one focus point to the other.
I also see a risk for me to do something I don't intend when I put my eye to the EVF. I have always used my left eye, and could never imagine using the left so my nose touches the screen so I constantly have to wipe smudges from the screen.

---------- Post added 08-03-15 at 02:56 PM ----------

Here's a rough and ready edit. It's my last shot of the day with the mk II and the 70 - 200 at 135mm using the in camera pano. I don't do these often as handheld it can be a little fussy. Either too fast or too slow...

I've cropped a little off the right, so only 14 mp in full size

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