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06-10-2015, 06:27 PM   #16
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In terms of Pentax using the 42MP Sony sensor, I wonder if Ricoh has access to a faster Fujitsu Milbeaut image processor yet? Pentax PRIME III and PRIME M probably needs an update to cope with 42MP FF, 4K video etc. But I haven't seen anything about any new Milbeaut on the web for a long time.

---------- Post added 2015-06-11 at 11:35 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK. So imagina a 42 MP FF sensor, with pixel shift...
Sony might do it themselves. They also have shake-reduction.

If you look at one of the slides from the A7RII launch as reported by Imaging Resource, they mention 'super resolution' as a feature of the A7rII.

That is how Olympus phrase their use of shake reduction to boost resolution, so maybe Sony have picked that feature up.

06-10-2015, 06:49 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
If you look at one of the slides from the A7RII launch as reported by Imaging Resource, they mention 'super resolution' as a feature of the A7rII.
Sounds interesting.
Though I wasn't able to find a reference for this.
Any idea where you saw it?

- added later...

Okay I found it.
Though i'm fairly confident this is simply saying "super resolution" with respect to the increase in MP count over it's predecessors.
That said, if Sony does add this to the A7Rii, this could results in some rather devastating blows for the K-3ii and upcoming Pentax FF bodies :/
-

Last edited by JohnBee; 06-10-2015 at 06:57 PM.
06-10-2015, 06:57 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In terms of Pentax using the 42MP Sony sensor, I wonder if Ricoh has access to a faster Fujitsu Milbeaut image processor yet? Pentax PRIME III and PRIME M probably needs an update to cope with 42MP FF, 4K video etc. But I haven't seen anything about any new Milbeaut on the web for a long time.
Good question. Is it possible Ricoh is producing their own image processor? They have the capacity to do so.

Or we might see a dual processor camera.

Or they could buy an image processor from Samsung. The NX-1 is sporting an awful lot of horse power.

Or they could buy from Sony.
06-10-2015, 07:08 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Good question. Is it possible Ricoh is producing their own image processor? They have the capacity to do so.

Or we might see a dual processor camera.

Or they could buy an image processor from Samsung. The NX-1 is sporting an awful lot of horse power.

Or they could buy from Sony.
NOT Samsung that was definite no from Kenspo,doubt they make their own..will be a Sony..pretty much said by inside soures(if we can trust them ) but ut will be above the current FF sensors he said,so must be something special..sure would like specs before I succumb to the K3II

06-10-2015, 07:43 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
This 42MP is a BSI sensor. It should blow the D750 away. I would bet money that this 42MP is going to be in the new Pentax FF.
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
....
Kenspro has all but said the Ricoh FF will have the 42MP sensor in it. Technically he said it would be "less and 46MP" and be "Sony's newest technology". Unless Sony has a new 36MP sensor coming out I don't see it happening.
QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
I agree with you. This odd sentence at the time about "less than 46MP" now takes an whole new meaning... I even thought that it could be a typo meaning "less than 36MP" and a 24MP FF. Today, I don't think it was a typo anymore!
QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
When I asked Kenspo he said no to 24/36 & 50 then I said 40..no answer...so I think 42 may be it & 20MP crop? a perfect all around camera...if Pentax was using and old sony sensor(D750/810) then why wait till Dec to release it? it must be a step above what's out here (says Kenspo)..
QuoteOriginally posted by oxidized Quote
Technically if you look at timelines, the Sony A7rII was supposed to be released in late March, early April. It was just delayed until now (unknown reason) Fast forward 6 months, we are in October/November. It could very well be an agreement similar to the ones with Nikon where Pentax could get to use the sensor 6+ months later.

As others have pointed, this is also probably the reason behind the whole FF secrecy in terms of specs and also the weird prototype. Probably per the agreement, Sony does not want to cannibalize their new product sales by selling sensors to third parties.

In addition, if you also think about it, the 36MP sensor will be almost 3 years old at the time of the 'scheduled' Pentax FF release. It makes no sense to use such an outdated sensor (even though its still great by today's standards) in a new flagship product.
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In terms of Pentax using the 42MP Sony sensor, I wonder if Ricoh has access to a faster Fujitsu Milbeaut image processor yet? Pentax PRIME III and PRIME M probably needs an update to cope with 42MP FF, 4K video etc. But I haven't seen anything about any new Milbeaut on the web for a long time.

---------- Post added 2015-06-11 at 11:35 AM ----------


Sony might do it themselves. They also have shake-reduction.

If you look at one of the slides from the A7RII launch as reported by Imaging Resource, they mention 'super resolution' as a feature of the A7rII.

That is how Olympus phrase their use of shake reduction to boost resolution, so maybe Sony have picked that feature up.
Several weeks ago I posted a couple of links about Sony's 6th generation sensor. They have had it for a couple of years, but only have been using it on the smaller sensors.The post had another interesting link in it that was to a overview/analysis of Sony's sensor line...A couple of years ago I posted an article here on the image processors that the various manufacturers were using. Canon did their own, while Nikon and Pentax used the Fujitsu Milbeaut. If I remember correctly, Nikon had a side deal with Fujitsu to add some custom processing to their version of the chip. Given Nikon's volume they could swing it, as opposed to Pentax's rather thin volume, they would get the off the shelf version. I too have not seen anything about any new faster Fujitsu Milbeaut image processor being announced, but your are going to need 6 months on a simulator, and then another 6 months with the actual chip sample to get the timing bullet proof. The last information on any new Fujitsu Milbeaut.release was in 2013.

Also, about a year ago Sony invest some capital in Olympus, and shortly there after they were offering a 5-axis image stabilization capability. You have to believe that Sony acquired usage rights to the Olympus technology as part of the deal.If Pentax is able to acquire access to the 42MP sensor, they would bump up 3 generations in sensor technology, with inherent better ISO, lower noise, and a larger pixel size per pixel site. All very positive. They would also start leveling the playing field with Nikon in terms of access (especially in terms of timing - i.e., not having to wait till after Nikon) to technology. Being associated with Ricoh may be paying benefits in this respect.

06-11-2015, 01:35 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
It has been speculated/observed here about the implicit lag between when Sony uses their own technology in one of their products, then it appears in a Nikon release some time later - 6 to 9 months. Then Pentax is able to get it about 6 months or so after Nikon's use of it. So, since it appears that Pentax is probably using the same sensor (or some close relation) as in Nikon's D800/810, Pentax is probably 18 months out - as in version II of their full frame offering.
The A580, D7000 and K-5 were all announced within a month or so of each other back in 2010, and all featured the same, then brand new Sony sensor.

Since then, as far as I know, there has not been a release of the same sensor in the same camera generation between the three companies to base any assumptions on, with Sony pumping out tons of models every year, Nikon seemingly announcing at random intervals (and switching to Toshiba with the D7100), and Pentax's previous regular 16 month flagship cycle being disrupted in the Hoya -> Ricoh transition.

I see no evidence that there is any exclusivity agreement with Sony sensors.

Last edited by Cannikin; 06-11-2015 at 01:43 AM.
06-11-2015, 01:44 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
The A580, D7000 and K-5 were all announced within a month or so of each other back in 2010, and all featured the same, then brand new Sony sensor.

Since then, there has not been a synchronized release of similar models between the three companies, with Sony pumping out tons of models every year, Nikon seemingly announcing at random intervals, and Pentax's previous regular 16 month flagship cycle being disrupted in the Hoya -> Ricoh transition.

I see no evidence that there is any exclusivity agreement with Sony sensors.


You are right, because there isn't.
No component maker can survive with such a policy.
If they did, they will find their customers turning to someone else the next product cycle.

What usually happens that when a part is past a certain project stage, the marketing people will start to offer it to potential customers.
There are customer qualification windows to hit and syncing with their product releases let's you earn back the development costs as early as possible.
You don't make an expensive product with the materials and tooling costs without a gauge or estimation that someone will be buying.


Last edited by pinholecam; 06-11-2015 at 01:54 AM.
06-11-2015, 02:22 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by oxidized Quote
Technically if you look at timelines, the Sony A7rII was supposed to be released in late March, early April. It was just delayed until now (unknown reason) Fast forward 6 months, we are in October/November. It could very well be an agreement similar to the ones with Nikon where Pentax could get to use the sensor 6+ months later.
On SAR they rumored that the delay was due to cooling difficulties. Which is understandable for an FF sensor outputting 4K video in a small WR body. But that's just a rumor about a rumor though.
06-11-2015, 04:26 AM   #24
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According to this rumor: Is the A7rII the first proper A-mount lens compatible camera? (A7rII also gets after the Canon user) | sonyalpharumors the new A7rII autofocusses Canon lenses at high speed with a metabones adapter?!? And that it means the same for other third party lenses, even screw driven!

...That's raising the bar. (Again.)

QuoteQuote:
Dpreview writes:
PDAF will work even with third-party lenses via existing adapters, including in continuous AF tracking mode. This is potentially a huge deal – especially for Canon users. We’ve used an a7R II with a Canon 24-70mm lens and a Metabones adapter, and focus is indeed very fast indeed. We’ll be looking at this in more depth as soon as we have a production sample camera, but for now, we’re highly impressed.


Last edited by Clavius; 06-11-2015 at 04:34 AM.
06-11-2015, 04:57 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Also, about a year ago Sony invest some capital in Olympus, and shortly there after they were offering a 5-axis image stabilization capability. You have to believe that Sony acquired usage rights to the Olympus technology as part of the deal.
The disassembled camera bodies have shown that the Olympus and Sony IBIS systems are very different.
06-11-2015, 08:12 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
It has been speculated/observed here about the implicit lag between when Sony uses their own technology in one of their products, then it appears in a Nikon release some time later - 6 to 9 months. Then Pentax is able to get it about 6 months or so after Nikon's use of it. So, since it appears that Pentax is probably using the same sensor (or some close relation) as in Nikon's D800/810, Pentax is probably 18 months out - as in version II of their full frame offering.
_________________

That said, the technology will probably be available to Pentax in terms of the MF sensor for the 645Z replacement.

It sounds like Ricoh has been able to break that chain and get that sensor as quickly as Nikon. Nikon has been sourcing a few sensors to other than Sony, so its not like Sony is dependent on Nikon loyalty. Nikon, Pentax and even Canon are buying some sensors from Sony because they are compelling performers - its a business. So why wouldn't Ricoh be able to get its sensors in a timely manner from Sony? Kudos to Ricoh for getting this 42mp backlit sensor for the FF. Its amazing to me that Sony was able to respond so quickly to
Samsung's challenge with backlit sensors.
06-11-2015, 09:06 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Its amazing to me that Sony was able to respond so quickly to
Samsung's challenge with backlit sensors.
Sony has been making BSI sensor for years and it was rumored last year that Sony would announce new sensor tech this year. This puts Fuji on the spot more than anyone. They have been banking on their organic sensor technology allowing them to keep up with FF sensors. They have had several delays and problems with heat and power consumption. The X-Pro 2 keeps getting pushed back. Fuji might have to release the updated X-Pro 2 and X-T2 with standard thick CMOS technology and wait another year or two for the next release cycle to bring organic sensors to market. Fuji and Sony are going head to head on the mirrorless front and now we will see if Fuji can answer.
06-11-2015, 09:40 AM   #28
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Maybe Ricoh has to source CPU from Sony as a packaged deal.
06-11-2015, 01:41 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ruggiex Quote
Maybe Ricoh has to source CPU from Sony as a packaged deal.
That would be awesome. The Milbeaut is quite... lacking compared to the competitors. And it doesn't seem to support just adding more processors.

I wish Pentax could use the Samsung processor, or perhaps a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor? Those are pretty powerful and fuel sipping, they include all the connectivity you could want, ... maybe in combination with a Milbeaut for the actual image processor part, if what Qualcomm offers isn't good enough.

Fujitsu isn't doing processors anymore, but the company that was created together with Panasonic did announce a few things IIRC. Mostly though for surveillance applications. 4K etc.

Sony does btw. stabilize video too, which is a pretty nice plus IMHO. Olympus does it. Some video cameras AFAIK also shift around the sensor to do it. Pentax is the only one not to make full use of the SR system.

Even if Pentax gets the sensor, I don't think the resulting camera will be as impressive as the Sony.
06-11-2015, 02:00 PM - 1 Like   #30
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I don't want to sound like a Sony fangirl (but you all know I am anyway) but the A7r II and the RX100 IV are amazing cameras - Sony clearly leading the pack in terms of innovation (and no I don't want to get into a debate about what "innovation" is according to some people's narrow and twisted definitions - bwahaha).

I have been waiting for an A7S II, but the A7r II is mighty tempting. Glad to see they are finally implementing 4K on their latest bodies - so much for some forum poster's comments a few months ago about how difficult this would be and I didn't understand the challenges blah blah blah ... :-)
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