Sony A7rII - 42MP

kadajawi · 06-15-2015, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

Well, depends. If the wells are optimized for a certain angle, they might not be as good for another angle of incidence, one from a relatively large register distance, which the K-mount has. And secondly, the sensor seems to have some AF chips, but those only work in liveview (when the mirror isn't in the way). This means they would be wasted on a DSLR until you go live view or video mode. It might not make sense to buy expensive on-sensor AF if the camera won't be able to use it.
I am not sure if any of this, I am just saying that a sensor optimized for mirrorless might not necessarily be the most affordable, or most effective for a DSLR. But the 42MP BSI sensor does sound good, I am not saying that I don't want it. Just that I am not holding my breath waiting for it to happen!

Fair enough. But offering a sensor with AF would be good for video and live view. Admittedly Pentax doesn't care about video, at least not the professional side of it, but as AF is more of a consumer thing... I think anything can happen, really.

BSI only shows it's advantage when you have high pixel densities, so who knows. Maybe Samsung didn't push it far enough.

**Rondec** · 06-15-2015, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Fair enough. But offering a sensor with AF would be good for video and live view. Admittedly Pentax doesn't care about video, at least not the professional side of it, but as AF is more of a consumer thing... I think anything can happen, really.

BSI only shows it's advantage when you have high pixel densities, so who knows. Maybe Samsung didn't push it far enough.

Then would it show an advantage with even less density like with 41 megapixel full frame? 28 megapixel APS-C is, what, the equivalent of 60-ish megapixel full frame?

Fogel70 · 06-15-2015, 01:58 PM

BSI can give some advantages, but probably not much in noise performance on a 42MP FF sensor.
It would most likely give some advantage when it comes to pixel vignetting using non telecentric lenses (especially on short register mount lenses), and probably also improvements on crosstalk with improved color response and DR. It also makes possible for shorter circuitry on the sensor, which improves speed, and lowers heat.

normhead · 06-15-2015, 02:49 PM

Isn't part of the advantage of BSI larger sensor sites, with the same footprint, which if I remember the original articles on it , I believe sensor sites were collecting about 60% of the light hitting then, and the BSI sensors could collet theoretically about 95% of the light, which would be about a half stop better noise, if they maxed it out.

Winder · 06-15-2015, 03:08 PM - **1 Like**

You Tube

---------- Post added 06-15-15 at 05:10 PM ----------

You Tube

kadajawi · 06-15-2015, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Isn't part of the advantage of BSI larger sensor sites, with the same footprint, which if I remember the original articles on it , I believe sensor sites were collecting about 60% of the light hitting then, and the BSI sensors could collet theoretically about 95% of the light, which would be about a half stop better noise, if they maxed it out.

Yup. However the micro lenses made up for that a bit.

philbaum · 06-16-2015, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Isn't part of the advantage of BSI larger sensor sites, with the same footprint, which if I remember the original articles on it , I believe sensor sites were collecting about 60% of the light hitting then, and the BSI sensors could collet theoretically about 95% of the light, which would be about a half stop better noise, if they maxed it out.

I was watching Tony Northup's review of the A7rII here

You Tube

About 2 or 3 minutes into the video, he made a comment that he hadn't noticed that much of a difference with the NXI's BSI sensor, but noted that he will test both cameras BSI sensors in a future video. This coincides with my look at DXO measurements of the NX1 compared to the 2 1/2 year old K3. Didn't see any significant improvement due to BSI, other than maybe a 5% color sensitivity improvement - other charts were negligible.

The reality of the situation is that camera companies have so much invested in any new model, that by the time it gets tested, there's very little chance that they would not go ahead and produce a model that was at best, mediocre in some way. And i can sympathize with that approach. Engineering is the application of science to products. Odd things can happen along the way causing the product to be not as wonderful as expected. What are you going to do - throw it away as a total loss. Perhaps of 7 new features, only 6 of 7 features worked out. Would a mfr really throw that slightly flawed camera away - nope - not going to happen.

Any company that can produce an A7s is good enough to mfr a super BSI FF sensor. But we really won't know until its fully tested.

Winder · 06-16-2015, 03:04 PM

Sony Q&A: The must-have sensor tech of the future?

Sony Sensor Tech

**RobA_Oz** · 06-16-2015, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Sony Q&A: The must-have sensor tech of the future?

Sony Sensor Tech

A good insight into their decision-making. Thanks for the link. Interesting that they chose 42MP specifically to suit 4k video. 42 - the answer to life, the universe and 4k video (if not everything).

If Ricoh were to adopt this sensor for the forthcoming 35FF body, it would provide that "something special", at least for those who've been waiting for a mjaor video improvement.

rawr · 06-16-2015, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Sony Sensor Tech

Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP.

Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'.

Winder · 06-16-2015, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

A good insight into their decision-making. Thanks for the link. Interesting that they chose 42MP specifically to suit 4k video. 42 - the answer to life, the universe and 4k video (if not everything).

If Ricoh were to adopt this sensor for the forthcoming 35FF body, it would provide that "something special", at least for those who've been waiting for a mjaor video improvement.

If Ricoh uses the 42MP sensor and they incorporate 4K they would be the first DSLR manufacturer to support 4K internal.... That I know of. Nikon might have an D820 getting ready to launch. I don't see Canon bringing a new body with internal 4K. The 1Dc is $8,000.

Ricoh has a golden opportunity. In the next 12 months I will bet Nikon will have a DSLR using this sensor, and Sony will have the A99II and the A7rII. Canon will have the 5Dr/s. I'm note sure that Ricoh should launch with the 36MP, but that maybe what they do. It would still be an amazing camera.

---------- Post added 06-16-15 at 05:31 PM ----------

Originally posted by rawr

Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP.

Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'.

You still benefit from the high specifications that 4K requires. The speed, processing power, and sensor technology will make for better still cameras.

kadajawi · 06-16-2015, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP.

Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'.

Any camera would do great for those applications. Video is more challenging. Doesn't make it a bad camera for stills.

Even if Ricoh uses this sensor it doesn't have to be better for video. There is more to good video performance, like the processor. And the software, which Pentax tends to screw up.

philbaum · 06-16-2015, 04:12 PM

For some reason, the 2 A7 series cameras that have 4K video, also have the totally silent shutter. That would be so cool if that enabled a Pentax silent shutter as well - even with the occasional shutter roll effect. The GH4 also has a silent shutter, i believe. I was watching a dress rehearsal run thru of a play this afternoon, wishing i had a silent shutter to take some pics of onlookers without distracting them from their duties.

Winder · 06-16-2015, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by philbaum

For some reason, the 2 A7 series cameras that have 4K video, also have the totally silent shutter. That would be so cool if that enabled a Pentax silent shutter as well - even with the occasional shutter roll effect. The GH4 also has a silent shutter, i believe. I was watching a dress rehearsal run thru of a play this afternoon, wishing i had a silent shutter to take some pics of onlookers without distracting them from their duties.

Fuji also has the silent shutter option with up to 1/32,000 shutter speed.

osv · 06-16-2015, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP.

Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'.

if you look at the sony roadmaps and projections, video has been and is forecast to be a more stable market than still cameras.

in that same sony documentation, sony acknowledges the weak ongoing market for still cameras.

newspapers and local t.v. stations have been cutting out camera crews, reporters have to shoot and self-report everything, all by themselves.

nikon and pentax have zero history with video, but sony has to compete with canon, and it's solid prosumer video camera history.

i think that sony is looking at these things, and carving out a niche with one camera line that can do it all, very well.

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06-15-2015, 12:39 AM	#46
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by Na Horuk Well, depends. If the wells are optimized for a certain angle, they might not be as good for another angle of incidence, one from a relatively large register distance, which the K-mount has. And secondly, the sensor seems to have some AF chips, but those only work in liveview (when the mirror isn't in the way). This means they would be wasted on a DSLR until you go live view or video mode. It might not make sense to buy expensive on-sensor AF if the camera won't be able to use it. I am not sure if any of this, I am just saying that a sensor optimized for mirrorless might not necessarily be the most affordable, or most effective for a DSLR. But the 42MP BSI sensor does sound good, I am not saying that I don't want it. Just that I am not holding my breath waiting for it to happen! Fair enough. But offering a sensor with AF would be good for video and live view. Admittedly Pentax doesn't care about video, at least not the professional side of it, but as AF is more of a consumer thing... I think anything can happen, really. BSI only shows it's advantage when you have high pixel densities, so who knows. Maybe Samsung didn't push it far enough.

06-15-2015, 02:48 AM	#47
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by kadajawi Fair enough. But offering a sensor with AF would be good for video and live view. Admittedly Pentax doesn't care about video, at least not the professional side of it, but as AF is more of a consumer thing... I think anything can happen, really. BSI only shows it's advantage when you have high pixel densities, so who knows. Maybe Samsung didn't push it far enough. Then would it show an advantage with even less density like with 41 megapixel full frame? 28 megapixel APS-C is, what, the equivalent of 60-ish megapixel full frame?

06-15-2015, 01:58 PM	#48
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	BSI can give some advantages, but probably not much in noise performance on a 42MP FF sensor. It would most likely give some advantage when it comes to pixel vignetting using non telecentric lenses (especially on short register mount lenses), and probably also improvements on crosstalk with improved color response and DR. It also makes possible for shorter circuitry on the sensor, which improves speed, and lowers heat.

06-15-2015, 02:49 PM	#49
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Isn't part of the advantage of BSI larger sensor sites, with the same footprint, which if I remember the original articles on it , I believe sensor sites were collecting about 60% of the light hitting then, and the BSI sensors could collet theoretically about 95% of the light, which would be about a half stop better noise, if they maxed it out.

06-15-2015, 05:34 PM	#51
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by normhead Isn't part of the advantage of BSI larger sensor sites, with the same footprint, which if I remember the original articles on it , I believe sensor sites were collecting about 60% of the light hitting then, and the BSI sensors could collet theoretically about 95% of the light, which would be about a half stop better noise, if they maxed it out. Yup. However the micro lenses made up for that a bit.

06-16-2015, 03:04 PM	#53
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Sony Q&A: The must-have sensor tech of the future? Sony Sensor Tech

06-16-2015, 03:20 PM	#54
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,197	Originally posted by Winder Sony Q&A: The must-have sensor tech of the future? Sony Sensor Tech A good insight into their decision-making. Thanks for the link. Interesting that they chose 42MP specifically to suit 4k video. 42 - the answer to life, the universe and 4k video (if not everything). If Ricoh were to adopt this sensor for the forthcoming 35FF body, it would provide that "something special", at least for those who've been waiting for a mjaor video improvement.

06-16-2015, 03:23 PM	#55
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Winder Sony Sensor Tech Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP. Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'.

06-16-2015, 03:28 PM	#56
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by RobA_Oz A good insight into their decision-making. Thanks for the link. Interesting that they chose 42MP specifically to suit 4k video. 42 - the answer to life, the universe and 4k video (if not everything). If Ricoh were to adopt this sensor for the forthcoming 35FF body, it would provide that "something special", at least for those who've been waiting for a mjaor video improvement. If Ricoh uses the 42MP sensor and they incorporate 4K they would be the first DSLR manufacturer to support 4K internal.... That I know of. Nikon might have an D820 getting ready to launch. I don't see Canon bringing a new body with internal 4K. The 1Dc is $8,000. Ricoh has a golden opportunity. In the next 12 months I will bet Nikon will have a DSLR using this sensor, and Sony will have the A99II and the A7rII. Canon will have the 5Dr/s. I'm note sure that Ricoh should launch with the 36MP, but that maybe what they do. It would still be an amazing camera. ---------- Post added 06-16-15 at 05:31 PM ---------- Originally posted by rawr Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP. Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'. You still benefit from the high specifications that 4K requires. The speed, processing power, and sensor technology will make for better still cameras.

06-16-2015, 03:57 PM	#57
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by rawr Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP. Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'. Any camera would do great for those applications. Video is more challenging. Doesn't make it a bad camera for stills. Even if Ricoh uses this sensor it doesn't have to be better for video. There is more to good video performance, like the processor. And the software, which Pentax tends to screw up.

06-16-2015, 04:12 PM	#58
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	For some reason, the 2 A7 series cameras that have 4K video, also have the totally silent shutter. That would be so cool if that enabled a Pentax silent shutter as well - even with the occasional shutter roll effect. The GH4 also has a silent shutter, i believe. I was watching a dress rehearsal run thru of a play this afternoon, wishing i had a silent shutter to take some pics of onlookers without distracting them from their duties.

06-16-2015, 05:48 PM	#59
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by philbaum For some reason, the 2 A7 series cameras that have 4K video, also have the totally silent shutter. That would be so cool if that enabled a Pentax silent shutter as well - even with the occasional shutter roll effect. The GH4 also has a silent shutter, i believe. I was watching a dress rehearsal run thru of a play this afternoon, wishing i had a silent shutter to take some pics of onlookers without distracting them from their duties. Fuji also has the silent shutter option with up to 1/32,000 shutter speed.

06-16-2015, 08:24 PM	#60
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by rawr Call me a Luddite, but is depressed me quite a bit as a still photographer to see that 4K video this, 4K suitability that pretty drove most of the development parameters of the camera - even the 42 MP. Not 'we listened to landscape or studio or portrait or sports or photojournalism photographers, so we did things this way'. if you look at the sony roadmaps and projections, video has been and is forecast to be a more stable market than still cameras. in that same sony documentation, sony acknowledges the weak ongoing market for still cameras. newspapers and local t.v. stations have been cutting out camera crews, reporters have to shoot and self-report everything, all by themselves. nikon and pentax have zero history with video, but sony has to compete with canon, and it's solid prosumer video camera history. i think that sony is looking at these things, and carving out a niche with one camera line that can do it all, very well.