Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-19-2015, 08:06 AM   #76
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Olympus has clearly already sussed that one.
If you mean Sony, Sony sold all of its interest in Olympus. The Sony-Olympus partnership ended before it really began.

Fuji has partnered with Panasonic. Fuji is developing organic sensor technology and Panasonic will handle manufacturing.

Samsung has BSI and the ability to make high speed image processors that don't draw a lot of power. They benefit from their mobile device technology. Samsung is praying that Sony keeps BSI off the general market and only uses the technology in its own products. This will open the door for Samsung to sell to Nikon and Ricoh. They will continue to be a wildcard.

---------- Post added 06-19-15 at 10:41 AM ----------

Interview with Product Managers Y. Hori and R. Noguchi of Sony Europe ? A7rII, RX100 IV and RX10 II - MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews

06-19-2015, 08:53 AM   #77
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,375
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you mean Sony, Sony sold all of its interest in Olympus. The Sony-Olympus partnership ended before it really began.

Fuji has partnered with Panasonic. Fuji is developing organic sensor technology and Panasonic will handle manufacturing.

Samsung has BSI and the ability to make high speed image processors that don't draw a lot of power. They benefit from their mobile device technology. Samsung is praying that Sony keeps BSI off the general market and only uses the technology in its own products. This will open the door for Samsung to sell to Nikon and Ricoh. They will continue to be a wildcard.
Imho, it's more about the processing chips like Bionz or Samsung's adaption of Exynos. Those who own mobile processing end up owning you. That puts some camera companies on the spot. They can almost bankrupt themselves trying to develop their own, competitive chips; or buy in the whole imaging engine - sensor, processor, software and all - on a third-party basis and resign themselves to being very lowly and low-profit hardware assemblers so far as camera bodies are concerned, and really just the creatures of the processor companies; or they can do deals and form alliances, mergers and whatever while they still have at least something to offer. Nikon is a case in point. Their brand-name will slowly become worth less with each passing year they don't start to get out of the predicament they are in or soon will be.
06-19-2015, 09:05 AM   #78
Veteran Member
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
Yesterday's innovators often become today's entrenched management. And in large companies, the multiple layers of supervision and management tend to slow down and inhibit the introduction of new ideas. Rationalization of unsettling events often becomes the norm until the day that doors at the factory have closed.

Using the first 4 months of 2015, mirrorless sales are currently 21% of total ILC sales, and 23% of total ILC sales in units. They are actually higher than that if one could figure out Samsung's sales. Thats a huge disruption, and i'm sure Nikon and Canon would love to have that revenue and those customers back in the fold. In the last 2014 photokina, a Canon top manager made an explicit statement that "large format" mirrorless was shortly going to get issued by Canon - and he wasn't talking the Canon m-mount. But where is that project?

Nikon and Canon have had it their own way for so long, they seem frozen in place as far as how to react to a new culture. They keep repeating old mythology. "Mirror, mirror on the wall - who's the prettiest one of them all" Thom Hogan has provided plenty of wake-up calls to Nikon - and no answer.
06-19-2015, 09:33 AM   #79
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Imho, it's more about the processing chips like Bionz or Samsung's adaption of Exynos. Those who own mobile processing end up owning you. That puts some camera companies on the spot. They can almost bankrupt themselves trying to develop their own, competitive chips; or buy in the whole imaging engine - sensor, processor, software and all - on a third-party basis and resign themselves to being very lowly and low-profit hardware assemblers so far as camera bodies are concerned, and really just the creatures of the processor companies; or they can do deals and form alliances, mergers and whatever while they still have at least something to offer. Nikon is a case in point. Their brand-name will slowly become worth less with each passing year they don't start to get out of the predicament they are in or soon will be.
Ricoh is in the same boat as Nikon. Nikon is in a better position due to market share and name brand recognition. We will have to see what assets and technologies Ricoh can bring to the table. Nikon had better work fast or they will be bleeding market share at an alarming pace. Once an AF adapter is developed for the E mount that works with Nikon glass, Nikon will be toast..... Unless they have an answer.

---------- Post added 06-19-15 at 11:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
In the last 2014 photokina, a Canon top manager made an explicit statement that "large format" mirrorless was shortly going to get issued by Canon - and he wasn't talking the Canon m-mount. But where is that project?
Last year the rumor was that Canon had new sensor tech that they had been focusing on, they weren't putting as much into traditional thick CMOS sensor technology. Maybe that was just the Canon fanboys trying to justify the poor performance of Canon sensors. With the 5Ds rolling out with just a warmed over sensor and standard 1080 HD, it doesn't look like Canon had much in the way of new technology. I really think they have fallen behind. Even if they roll out a new 645 mirrorless, they know they don't possess the support technology or the sensor technology to compete with Sony.

I Might Have Been Wrong | byThom | Thom Hogan

---------- Post added 06-19-15 at 12:28 PM ----------

Interview with Zeiss about the new Batis lenses: “We made them because the A7 system is exploding” :) | sonyalpharumors



06-19-2015, 10:33 AM   #80
osv
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
that guy can be so ignorant at times that it's appalling: "(3) re-invent the camera and hope to grow... I donít think Nikon (or anyone else) is close to #3 at the moment."

sony has bleeding edge camera technology on the market, no one else is anywhere near as innovative, and he dismisses it as "or anyone else".

there isn't any kind of camera re-invention that will magically create markets for media acquisition devices, that die was already cast with the influx of smartphones.

kids don't want separate devices for media acquisition, and they don't want separate devices for media consumption... no slrs, no camcorders, no televisions, no telephones, it all gets done with their smartphones.
06-19-2015, 10:37 AM   #81
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
(3) re-invent the camera and hope to grow..
He is being facetious.

---------- Post added 06-19-15 at 12:56 PM ----------

06-19-2015, 11:23 AM   #82
osv
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
i don't see facetious there, but maybe i'm still biased about that "review" hack that he did on the a7r.

he never mentioned the evf, the superior latitude of the a7r files, etc... i had a pm conversation with him about it... he claimed that his nikon readership doesn't care about manual focus(probably true, lol), and he didn't really understand the differences between latitude and d.r... none of that detracts from the point that you made earlier, of course.

why did he claim that "Sony quietly admitted that their market share in interchangeable lens cameras (mirrorless and DSLRs) was 11% last year" without providing any proof or links to a source.

i wonder why he thinks that a d300s replacement is going to provide "meaningful revenue" for nikon? kinda like people out here asking for a cheap no-frills basic ff camera from pentax??

06-19-2015, 11:26 AM - 1 Like   #83
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i don't see facetious there, but maybe i'm still biased about that "review" hack that he did on the a7r.

he never mentioned the evf, the superior latitude of the a7r files, etc... i had a pm conversation with him about it... he claimed that his nikon readership doesn't care about manual focus(probably true, lol), and he didn't really understand the differences between latitude and d.r... none of that detracts from the point that you made earlier, of course.

why did he claim that "Sony quietly admitted that their market share in interchangeable lens cameras (mirrorless and DSLRs) was 11% last year" without providing any proof or links to a source.

i wonder why he thinks that a d300s replacement is going to provide "meaningful revenue" for nikon? kinda like people out here asking for a cheap no-frills basic ff camera from pentax??
He's a hardcore Nikon fanboy, but he is also a critic over how Nikon has failed to innovate or communicate. While he might write a hack review of the A7r, he knows that Sony is getting ready to smack his beloved Nikon to the ground.
06-19-2015, 07:54 PM   #84
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,793
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
My own feeling is that alliances are the way forward as the big three manoeuvre around each other. Nikon, for example, could look outside the imaging biz for software and processor expertise (Apple, Microsoft, Nvidia, etc). Nikon have a top-drawer branding to trade. The smaller outfits need to find a shelter in tie-ups with the bigger ones or they won't remain viable. Olympus has clearly already sussed that one. Fuji, Ricoh and co have it to look forward to. The software/processor challenge must be huge, and well beyond all save the largest companies, but it's the engine of these machines and their future, I guess. Nikon and Canon will change, though. They don't have a choice. Thus, more armchair strategy from the Summertown laundrette
Software and hardware? Android and ARM based mobile chips. Either making use of the image processor found in those chips, or or making use of the Milbeaut, but using it in addition to a mobile chip (preferably Qualcomm).

You guys tend to forget Samsung. Their processor IMHO seems to exceed Sony's BIONZ X, their video encoder for example is very impressive. h265 vs an admittedly sophisticated h264 encoder. And it is mobile chip derived. Likewise they are using Tizen, a mobile phone OS.
06-19-2015, 09:57 PM   #85
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
noelpolar's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Goolwa, SA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,253
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Yesterday's innovators often become today's entrenched management. And in large companies, the multiple layers of supervision and management tend to slow down and inhibit the introduction of new ideas. Rationalization of unsettling events often becomes the norm until the day that doors at the factory have closed.
Quite true....
06-20-2015, 04:13 AM   #86
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 23,662
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you mean Sony, Sony sold all of its interest in Olympus. The Sony-Olympus partnership ended before it really began.

Fuji has partnered with Panasonic. Fuji is developing organic sensor technology and Panasonic will handle manufacturing.

Samsung has BSI and the ability to make high speed image processors that don't draw a lot of power. They benefit from their mobile device technology. Samsung is praying that Sony keeps BSI off the general market and only uses the technology in its own products. This will open the door for Samsung to sell to Nikon and Ricoh. They will continue to be a wildcard.

---------- Post added 06-19-15 at 10:41 AM ----------

Interview with Product Managers Y. Hori and R. Noguchi of Sony Europe ? A7rII, RX100 IV and RX10 II - MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews
The problem I have is that all of the new developments don't really seem to improve image quality for still images. They seem to be focused on improving video and improving frame rates. But for someone who doesn't really care about high frame rates and who doesn't do a lot of video, I would rather have things like improved dynamic range and high iso ability. Maybe this sensor will offer that, but I am a little uncertain. Certainly the Samsung 28 megapixel sensor doesn't seem to offer much improvement over the 24 megapixel sensor that is in the K3 (and lags behind the Nikon tweaked version in the D7200).
06-20-2015, 04:59 AM   #87
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,793
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The problem I have is that all of the new developments don't really seem to improve image quality for still images. They seem to be focused on improving video and improving frame rates. But for someone who doesn't really care about high frame rates and who doesn't do a lot of video, I would rather have things like improved dynamic range and high iso ability. Maybe this sensor will offer that, but I am a little uncertain. Certainly the Samsung 28 megapixel sensor doesn't seem to offer much improvement over the 24 megapixel sensor that is in the K3 (and lags behind the Nikon tweaked version in the D7200).
The next thing after or with 4K is HDR... and video needs sensors that have a big DR, because you can't merge several stills as with stills. Also video is using S-Log etc. for greater dynamic range. High dynamic range is important to filmmakers, it looks closer to film, and they love a very flat picture they can manipulate a lot.

Also this Sony sensor is more for stills. For video it is not an optimal resolution, the A7s is.

Last edited by kadajawi; 06-20-2015 at 05:24 AM.
06-20-2015, 05:54 AM   #88
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The problem I have is that all of the new developments don't really seem to improve image quality for still images. They seem to be focused on improving video and improving frame rates. But for someone who doesn't really care about high frame rates and who doesn't do a lot of video, I would rather have things like improved dynamic range and high iso ability. Maybe this sensor will offer that, but I am a little uncertain. Certainly the Samsung 28 megapixel sensor doesn't seem to offer much improvement over the 24 megapixel sensor that is in the K3 (and lags behind the Nikon tweaked version in the D7200).
Are you referring to DxO Scores?
06-20-2015, 06:01 AM   #89
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 23,662
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Are you referring to DxO Scores?
Pretty much.
06-20-2015, 06:34 AM   #90
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pretty much.
Look at the DxO scores for the Canon 5D and compare to the A900. They have almost identical S/N and DR curves on DxO, but the A900 makes noticeably better prints. DxO wasn't around when I was shooting with my 5D and looking at moving to the A900, but I don't think their scores reflect the quality of the actual prints that we were making. I'm not trying to knock DxO. I think their scores have relative value, but for actual prints I think they could do better. At higher ISO where DxO says the A900 has the same amount of S/N, the images looked better because the noise was a finer grain and less blotchy. The color might have the similar bit depth (what ever that really means), but the A900 had better colors.

If the are the same, then that means that the Samsung 28MP sensor is just as good as the Sony 24MP sensor. It means that Sony has a viable competitor in the sensor market and Ricoh can use Samsung sensors and not loose image quality. If Sony does chose to keep the BSI sensor for their own cameras, they basically hand Samsung some market share. I don't think Samsung gets the most out of their sensors.

I don't think Ricoh needs to worry too much about the sensors. They need to focus (pun intended) on drastically improving AF because that is the next big hurdle. Even the technology of the 5 year old 36MP (based on the same architecture as the K-5 sensor) is more than enough for amazing image quality. I won't upgrade my A7II to the A7rII simply because I don't need 42MP or 4K. I think that 42MP is good for the Ricoh FF because it allows for 18MP APS-C mode and Ricoh needs that to help its APS-C users bridge over to the FF and still use many of the DA lenses.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
4k, a7rii, body, bsi, camera, canon, chips, dslr, feature, ff, fuji, information, k-5, mirrorless, nikon, olympus, panasonic, photography, processor, record, resolution, ricoh, rocket, samsung, scene, science, sensor, share, sony, sony a7rii, technology, video
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax 31mm with Sony A7 vs Sony RX1 kindakaa Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 17 08-07-2015 01:14 PM
A7rII in May Clavius Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 4 06-07-2015 08:10 PM
A7RII: 50mp sensor Clavius Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 66 01-30-2015 07:56 PM
Sony ILCE-6000 - first thoughts (from last night's Sony dinner) Christine Tham Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 8 06-19-2014 04:28 PM
DSLRmagazine: Sony A7r vs Nikon D800 and A7 vs Leica M test. Sony is the best! Clavius Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 3 01-14-2014 10:25 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:30 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top