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06-20-2015, 09:20 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
He's a hardcore Nikon fanboy, but he is also a critic over how Nikon has failed to innovate or communicate. While he might write a hack review of the A7r, he knows that Sony is getting ready to smack his beloved Nikon to the ground.
Looking back over the last few years, what Sony has done well is to respond to cultural changes and what the customers want. While Canikon have seemingly spent their energy in trying to out compete other companies. The problem with that is that over time, one loses the spirit and confidence to innovate within the company. When Pentax came out with the K7,K5, now K3 line, Nikon quickly followed that with the D7000 lineup. What they couldn't or were unwilling to take on was the sensor SR. There just seems to be the lack of a long-term plan in Canikon. "When you don't know where you are going, any road is good enough to get you there"

06-20-2015, 09:47 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Looking back over the last few years, what Sony has done well is to respond to cultural changes and what the customers want. While Canikon have seemingly spent their energy in trying to out compete other companies. The problem with that is that over time, one loses the spirit and confidence to innovate within the company. When Pentax came out with the K7,K5, now K3 line, Nikon quickly followed that with the D7000 lineup. What they couldn't or were unwilling to take on was the sensor SR. There just seems to be the lack of a long-term plan in Canikon. "When you don't know where you are going, any road is good enough to get you there"
I think Nikon and Pentax under Hoya fell into a trap of depending on innovative 3rd party companies like Sony to develop the technology and they would simply implement the technology into their products for their user base. They didn't have to invest a lot of money int R&D because Sony and Fujitsu were doing it for them.

Sony's roots are in consumer electronics and that has both helped them and hurt them. With the A900 they didn't understand what high end photographers wanted from Sony as a company, not just a product. They have thrown a lot of mud on the wall over the last few years trying to figure out what works and looked pretty stupid at times doing it, but it appears to have paid off. With the A900 they were completely deaf to the user feedback until it was too late. When asked about a firmware update for the A900 a Sony executive said that it (A900) was "a finished product" meaning that they had no plans to support it once it was released. They didn't understand the expectations of the users. I think it took 18 months for the first firmware update and since they had never designed the A900 to be updated via firmware there was little they could actually do. They have come a long way.
06-20-2015, 03:31 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think Nikon and Pentax under Hoya fell into a trap of depending on innovative 3rd party companies like Sony to develop the technology and they would simply implement the technology into their products for their user base. They didn't have to invest a lot of money int R&D because Sony and Fujitsu were doing it for them.

Sony's roots are in consumer electronics and that has both helped them and hurt them. With the A900 they didn't understand what high end photographers wanted from Sony as a company, not just a product. They have thrown a lot of mud on the wall over the last few years trying to figure out what works and looked pretty stupid at times doing it, but it appears to have paid off. With the A900 they were completely deaf to the user feedback until it was too late. When asked about a firmware update for the A900 a Sony executive said that it (A900) was "a finished product" meaning that they had no plans to support it once it was released. They didn't understand the expectations of the users. I think it took 18 months for the first firmware update and since they had never designed the A900 to be updated via firmware there was little they could actually do. They have come a long way.
Thanks for the explanation and background. I have a friend who had the A900 but he never complains about anything, so i wasn't aware of that issue. Thats one thing that has changed in the world culture- i.e. the internet allows consumers to complain about their products in a "louder" voice than ever before. IMO, mfr that ignore the internet chatter - do so at their risk. The problem with the internet - is filtering out the meaningful from the rest of the information :-)
06-22-2015, 05:42 AM   #94
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Dominance and Submission: Sony delivers the ultimate mirrorless political statement ? Eyes Unclouded
Interesting insights into the new Sony A7R II and RX sensor technology - EOSHD
Sony interview: Stills and video are "converging" - The Video Mode

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0717419525/interview-kimio-maki-of-sony-the...nt-data-for-me
"In other bad news for Canon, the a7R II's 399-point on-sensor phase-detection AF system is even capable of focusing Canon EF lenses very quickly and (so far as we can tell) very accurately. We experienced this combination at work in a very poorly lit conference room, and even so, focus with a Canon EF 24-70mm F4L was at least as fast as we'd expect from a native Canon body. Impressive stuff - especially if this performance is maintained for AF tracking out in the real world."


Last edited by Winder; 06-22-2015 at 06:07 AM.
06-22-2015, 09:56 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Interview: Kimio Maki of Sony - 'the customer?s voice is the most important data for me': Digital Photography Review
"In other bad news for Canon, the a7R II's 399-point on-sensor phase-detection AF system is even capable of focusing Canon EF lenses very quickly and (so far as we can tell) very accurately. We experienced this combination at work in a very poorly lit conference room, and even so, focus with a Canon EF 24-70mm F4L was at least as fast as we'd expect from a native Canon body. Impressive stuff - especially if this performance is maintained for AF tracking out in the real world."
if that works out, perhaps even some of the nikon glass will af with that new adapter coming out, how can any company compete with it? mirrorless or dslr company.

that's not to say that sony would still be the best choice for everything, for instance the overheating f60m flash situation still hasn't been rectified afaik, and that flash can't use hss or even ttl(?) when pointed straight up.

if the a7rii pans out like it pencils out on paper, it is such a huge advance in technology tho.
06-23-2015, 02:27 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if that works out, perhaps even some of the nikon glass will af with that new adapter coming out, how can any company compete with it? mirrorless or dslr company.
There's video's on SAR of Nikon lenses that AF perfectly well with the adapter. I seriously like these developments.

I for one don't like to "buy into a system". The more lenses you buy, the bigger the hassle and costs become to switch systems. Yes, we're free to buy and sell any system we want, but it feels like being locked in or trapped. This is the only hobby that I know where this occurs.

Maybe the other brands can't compete with such developments? Maybe they will want to source their mount system from Sony as well, just like they do with the sensor? I only see the sunny side of that. Or maybe the smaller brands will choose to become lens manufacturers instead?
06-23-2015, 03:43 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Dominance and Submission: Sony delivers the ultimate mirrorless political statement ? Eyes Unclouded
Interesting insights into the new Sony A7R II and RX sensor technology - EOSHD
Sony interview: Stills and video are "converging" - The Video Mode

Interview: Kimio Maki of Sony - 'the customer?s voice is the most important data for me': Digital Photography Review
"In other bad news for Canon, the a7R II's 399-point on-sensor phase-detection AF system is even capable of focusing Canon EF lenses very quickly and (so far as we can tell) very accurately. We experienced this combination at work in a very poorly lit conference room, and even so, focus with a Canon EF 24-70mm F4L was at least as fast as we'd expect from a native Canon body. Impressive stuff - especially if this performance is maintained for AF tracking out in the real world."
I can't help feeling that the current picture given out by many sites is a little overdone: a mighty Colossus shakes the land as the midgets Canon and Nikon flee before it, etc. Sony cameras still have plenty of weak areas which mean that they aren't the best tool in many situations, from flash and fast-action AF to battery drain, lossy RAW and having no native lens catalogue worth the name, at least for now. There's also a large question mark over the name Sony and their staying power in the eyes of many, for very good reasons. Then there is the small or in fact very large matter of prices. It's costs a great deal to go all the way with this stuff.

There's some amusement in seeing Canon and Nikon as underdogs for a change but both still have plenty of ammo if they want to assert themselves. No sign of that yet so we don't know the suits are up for it. But if either or both rolled in with a butt-kicking mirrorless high-ender using their current mounts or a new one, then the picture would change fairly quickly, I'd have thought.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if news started to appear that chipping lenses and cameras to stuff the use of unlicensed third-party products was under serious consideration by the camera companies, although that would only hasten their demise I reckon.

I wonder where this leaves the regular enthusiast or plain photographer who isn't a squillionaire and who has too many family commitments to justify splurging on the finest of the finest? While many folks would love to have an A7RII and oodles of Zeiss lenses, the reality is probably that they'll go for much more modestly priced Canonikon equipment, perhaps segundo mano or refurb, and put up with it being rather bulky and old-fashioned. In fact in most cases they probably don't even do that, going instead for a high-end APS-C model and a mixture of old and new lenses. Imho, 24 mpx on APS-C is a very, very good compromise. You get amazing quality compared to only a few years ago but at a very reasonable price starting with a Nikon D3300 on up.

I don't think FF will really have arrived in force until good, reasonably well-featured FF - not bog standard basic models or creaking old models that weren't much cop to begin with - is down at the cost level higher-end APS-C is now. We'll be there when a D750, say, costs about one-third less, and that's a way off perhaps. Most folks simply do not have the money for anything more.

06-23-2015, 03:59 AM   #98
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It is clear that the A7R II will offer a lot, particularly for those interested in video, but as Mecrox says, I don't think it is a camera that beats Canon and Nikon into submission. Maybe some of these features will end up on lower end cameras eventually, but to me this camera is too expensive to be a game changer. It would be like someone saying that the Nikon D5 is the camera that will vanquish Canon once and for all. These are good cameras, but it isn't till some of these top end features trickle down to cheaper cameras that it will really change the playing field.

I also don't know how much people really are buying mirrorless over SLRs. Certainly there has been a shift in that direction, but I think there has been a stronger shift to using your phone for every day snap shots and then breaking out your camera (probably a couple generations old SLR) for occasions where it might be useful. None of these cameras are pocketable, all of them require a dedicated bag to carry and unless you are shooting with a slow kit lens or a prime, mirrorless cameras aren't particularly small.

I feel like mirrorless cameras have won the internet and have wowed review sites. Maybe that will translate in to the death of low end APS-C sales for Canon and Nikon, but I think their end is a little overstated at this point.
06-23-2015, 04:43 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wonder where this leaves the regular enthusiast or plain photographer who isn't a squillionaire and who has too many family commitments to justify splurging on the finest of the finest?
It leaves them where they have always been. Nothing has changed. If you had too many family commitments to justify splurging on the finest last year, then you are probably still in that same position this year. The A7rII isn't going to change that and isn't a camera designed for the average enthusiast.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I can't help feeling that the current picture given out by many sites is a little overdone: a mighty Colossus shakes the land as the midgets Canon and Nikon flee before it, etc
Sure. These sites have been hammering on Canon and Nikon to be more innovative and more responsive to the market. For a lot of these sites, praising the Sony A7rII is an unintended consequence of their primary goal. That goal is to hammer Canon and Nikon for not being more responsive or innovative. Not listening to their customers.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sony cameras still have plenty of weak areas which mean that they aren't the best tool in many situations, from flash and fast-action AF to battery drain, lossy RAW and having no native lens catalogue worth the name, at least for now.
The Sony A6000 is better than your average DSLR when it comes to AF. The A7II is as good as the K-3. For TTL Sony has a weakness, but for manual flash and studio work its ad good as the others. The battery issue is a relative thing. I want battery life just like everyone else, but coming from film and changing rolls every 36 shot of less, I really don't mind changing batteries every 300.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Most folks simply do not have the money for anything more.
Then they shouldn't buy it. Unless you're a working pro with special demands you don't really need 1Dx or 5DIII equipment. You don't need a Sony A7rII or a D750. For the enthusiast these are luxury items. Sony is going to sell all of the A7rII bodies they can make over the next few months. That is all they are worried about. They are going to steal a lot of users from Canon and that is their goal. The 5Ds can't touch the A7rII.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think it is a camera that beats Canon and Nikon into submission.
Its not going to, but it represents the first non-Canon or Nikon body to land in this segment. Compare the A7rII to the 5Ds.
06-23-2015, 04:51 AM   #100
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"The A7 platform is exploding." (Interview with Zeiss about the new Batis lenses: “We made them because the A7 system is exploding” :) | sonyalpharumors) Sony is listening to its userbase and developing like crazy. From A7 to A7rII: better ergonomics, SR, metal mount, better video, better UI, better AF, more lenses, off-brand AF support. Next? They answerred their users uncompressed RAW will implemented in all A7x version via firmware update. Going forward on that, I don't think a more affordable version will be very far away. They're goint to want to sell to even more layers of the market. Plus the economy of numbers is bound to allow better pricing soon.
06-23-2015, 05:14 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
"The A7 platform is exploding." (Interview with Zeiss about the new Batis lenses: “We made them because the A7 system is exploding” :) | sonyalpharumors) Sony is listening to its userbase and developing like crazy. From A7 to A7rII: better ergonomics, SR, metal mount, better video, better UI, better AF, more lenses, off-brand AF support. Next? They answerred their users uncompressed RAW will implemented in all A7x version via firmware update. Going forward on that, I don't think a more affordable version will be very far away. They're goint to want to sell to even more layers of the market. Plus the economy of numbers is bound to allow better pricing soon.
Zeiss is in the bag with Sony. Of course they are going to say that. They've sold their name and logo to Sony. That doesn't mean the A7 isn't interesting, but I trust Zeiss press releases as much as I trust Sony press releases .
06-23-2015, 07:59 AM   #102
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not cheap, but in the ballpark with the competition, fwiw:

5dsr $3.9k
a7rii $3.2k
d810 $3k
06-23-2015, 08:56 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
It leaves them where they have always been. Nothing has changed. If you had too many family commitments to justify splurging on the finest last year, then you are probably still in that same position this year. The A7rII isn't going to change that and isn't a camera designed for the average enthusiast.



Sure. These sites have been hammering on Canon and Nikon to be more innovative and more responsive to the market. For a lot of these sites, praising the Sony A7rII is an unintended consequence of their primary goal. That goal is to hammer Canon and Nikon for not being more responsive or innovative. Not listening to their customers.



The Sony A6000 is better than your average DSLR when it comes to AF. The A7II is as good as the K-3. For TTL Sony has a weakness, but for manual flash and studio work its ad good as the others. The battery issue is a relative thing. I want battery life just like everyone else, but coming from film and changing rolls every 36 shot of less, I really don't mind changing batteries every 300.



Then they shouldn't buy it. Unless you're a working pro with special demands you don't really need 1Dx or 5DIII equipment. You don't need a Sony A7rII or a D750. For the enthusiast these are luxury items. Sony is going to sell all of the A7rII bodies they can make over the next few months. That is all they are worried about. They are going to steal a lot of users from Canon and that is their goal. The 5Ds can't touch the A7rII.



Its not going to, but it represents the first non-Canon or Nikon body to land in this segment. Compare the A7rII to the 5Ds.
Special pleading, m'lud? I've no doubt the A7IIR promises to be a great camera but how much difference is it actually going to make? Thing is, all this stuff depends on buying the same narrative put about during the Great Fuji Scare of 2-3 years ago when ordinary folks were frightened to turn on their computer in case they had to sit through another video of Zack Arias. And that is, Nikon and Canon are sleepy giants deliberately holding everyone back and, in general, so out of touch that the old men who run them still travel to work in a litter. Their products are over, finished, on the most rubbishy rubbish heap in all of history. I'm not saying there isn't an element of truth in the narrative, but it is just that, a story, and it is promoted by good old commercial interests just like all the others. After all, if you believe bythom, then the key factor is not the format or shape of a camera but the degree to which it helps what he calls workflow and solves the user's problems. All current cameras are much of a muchness in this regard: they score pretty poorly whether DSLR or MILC.

Yesterday, I was reading the site of an internet photog who let drop that he'd sold his 645z, which he praised to the skies a few months ago. Now he is issuing similar plaudits to the 5DS. I wonder how long he'll keep that for. About 3-4 months? Rinse and repeat. That's how long the hype lasts for. The photography market is influenced by far deeper long-term trends than this. I don't think Canon and Nikon are about to disappear under an avalanche of Sony at the high end or the low end. I'd be very tempted, am very tempted, by a Sony A7II, but in the end I'd most likely go for a Nikon D750. Why? Tried and tested, conservative choice, known quantity, long- and well-established company, relatively affordable glass. The overall market is perhaps much more conservative than those at the leading edge sometimes imagine.

Last edited by mecrox; 06-23-2015 at 11:45 AM.
06-23-2015, 10:24 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Yesterday, I was reading the site of an internet photog who let drop that he'd sold his 645z, which he praised to the skies a few months ago. Now he is issuing similar plaudits to the 5DS. I wonder how long he'll keep that for. About 3-4 months?
I don't think we can take too many cues from, for example, pros who are getting money or equipment or gigs from a camera manufacturer (I'm sure you understand, Kenspo! :-D )

Enthusiasts are not likely to be getting contracts as brand ambassadors, don't usually write off gear purchases against tax as professionals, and we buy what we buy for very different reasons.

Aping professionals shouldn't be one of them, but of course it is, and companies take advantage of that.

"Tiger Woods wears Nike, hence a weekend hacker like me should drive to the store now ..."
06-24-2015, 03:48 AM - 1 Like   #105
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As for how well MILCs are doing... I'm currently in a touristy area of Spain, and spent a day in Barcelona too. Most photos are taken with smartphones, for sure. But as for more serious cameras, I'd say mirrorless and DSLRs are roughly even. The majority of DSLRs are Nikon, with some Sony (DSLT I presume) and Canon mixed in. Canon are quite rare actually, I think I see just as many DSLR shaped Sonys. No Pentax apart from mine. Mirrorless is all over the place, some Olympus, some Panasonic, some Sony. Haven't spotted Samsung, I believe. And of course no Pentax.

It isn't the biggest sample size of course, and it's just what I noticed (though bigger cameras are IMHO more noticeable).
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