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06-24-2015, 01:13 PM   #106
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We want Sony to do well because they make such fine sensors, a lot of which are used by Nikon, Pentax, m4/3 and even Canon on one of their models. And the fact that they make their own line of cameras keeps the sensors designed to provide fine photographic and DR results.

I've watched Sony's Nex line go from 2 ugly looking aps (apparently not that ugly because i ended up buying 2 of them) cameras in 2010 to very sophisticated FF mirrorless in 2015. All the Sony mirrorless cameras with aps and FF sensors have always had tilting LCDs. Long before Pentax installed one on the 645z and Nikon installed one on the D750. Do you want a totally quiet (except for aperture movement) shutter, well you can buy either the A7s or the new A7r II and they have them. Do any other full frame or aps cameras have a silent shutter - nope - except for the NX1. And Sony seems to listen to their critics. Folks complained about the lossy RAW, well the new A7r II model apparently has an option for non-lossy RAW - i read. Sure, they make missteps but they go fix them later.

As many have stated, DSLRs still have a majority of the marketplace, but mirrorless have a solid 25% plus of the ILC market. Do Canon and Nikon wish they had that 25% back for their bottom line - i would bet they do. Sony gets tons of free publicity everytime they come out with a new model because conservatism is not in their dictionary. Build a 500 gm FF camera? - Canikon and Pentax would never dream of doing that, but Sony did it without blinking an eye - apparently :-) Criticize Sony all you want, but they are making waves that are changing the marketplace.

06-26-2015, 01:43 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
We want Sony to do well because they make such fine sensors, a lot of which are used by Nikon, Pentax, m4/3 and even Canon on one of their models. And the fact that they make their own line of cameras keeps the sensors designed to provide fine photographic and DR results.

I've watched Sony's Nex line go from 2 ugly looking aps (apparently not that ugly because i ended up buying 2 of them) cameras in 2010 to very sophisticated FF mirrorless in 2015. All the Sony mirrorless cameras with aps and FF sensors have always had tilting LCDs. Long before Pentax installed one on the 645z and Nikon installed one on the D750. Do you want a totally quiet (except for aperture movement) shutter, well you can buy either the A7s or the new A7r II and they have them. Do any other full frame or aps cameras have a silent shutter - nope - except for the NX1. And Sony seems to listen to their critics. Folks complained about the lossy RAW, well the new A7r II model apparently has an option for non-lossy RAW - i read. Sure, they make missteps but they go fix them later.

As many have stated, DSLRs still have a majority of the marketplace, but mirrorless have a solid 25% plus of the ILC market. Do Canon and Nikon wish they had that 25% back for their bottom line - i would bet they do. Sony gets tons of free publicity everytime they come out with a new model because conservatism is not in their dictionary. Build a 500 gm FF camera? - Canikon and Pentax would never dream of doing that, but Sony did it without blinking an eye - apparently :-) Criticize Sony all you want, but they are making waves that are changing the marketplace.
True, Sony is pioneering new ground quickly. And I bet the more conservative brands, who are now doing nothing, watching Sony, will profit a lot from Sony's trial and error down the line. I seriously dislike that attitude.
06-26-2015, 09:30 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
True, Sony is pioneering new ground quickly. And I bet the more conservative brands, who are now doing nothing, watching Sony, will profit a lot from Sony's trial and error down the line. I seriously dislike that attitude.
Likewise. I did recruiting for awhile - and one thing we were warned about - is not to hire "ourselves". There apparently is a tendency by recruiters to hire folks that they are comfortable with - same psychological makeup - etc. So a company that falls into a "watch and copy" mode, may tend to hire new people that are also "watch and copy" folks. And there there's that cliche that states: "Attitudes are contagious - what's yours?"

For whatever reason - companies like Apple, Sony, Samsung are innovators and seem to encourage that attitude in their staff. How do you change a company thats conservative to one that innovates. Simply coming out with a memo that says "Everyone now innovate" is often not sufficient. Pentax getting bought by Ricoh is one of the best things that could have happened to Pentax - leading by example.
06-29-2015, 01:42 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Likewise. I did recruiting for awhile - and one thing we were warned about - is not to hire "ourselves". There apparently is a tendency by recruiters to hire folks that they are comfortable with - same psychological makeup - etc. So a company that falls into a "watch and copy" mode, may tend to hire new people that are also "watch and copy" folks. And there there's that cliche that states: "Attitudes are contagious - what's yours?"

For whatever reason - companies like Apple, Sony, Samsung are innovators and seem to encourage that attitude in their staff. How do you change a company thats conservative to one that innovates. Simply coming out with a memo that says "Everyone now innovate" is often not sufficient. Pentax getting bought by Ricoh is one of the best things that could have happened to Pentax - leading by example.
That is funny, for a copier company! LOL! I'm glad they're proving me wrong though.

07-02-2015, 06:16 AM   #110
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Sony: An eye on focus: Digital Photography Review
07-02-2015, 09:01 AM   #111
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that really deserves it's own thread, because the technology is going to eventually trickle down to most mirrorless cameras.

it's the final nail in the dslr coffin:

"...the system can be so accurate as to find and track not just a face, but the eyes within a face. High speed readout means it can now do this continuously. And on-sensor phase-detect means the camera doesn't suffer from the inaccuracies dedicated phase-detect modules in DSLRs are prone to.

Oh, and it can even do some of this with A-mount Sony glass, and Canon lenses as well, via adapters.*"

...In fact, it's this accurate phase-detect AF that allows the a7R II to focus the Sigma 50mm F1.4 lens with far more accuracy than a DSLR. We have to microadjust F1.4 primes all the time on DSLRs to get accurate focus out of them, and even then, peripheral AF points may continue to be off (as they may be miscalibrated relative to the center AF point). But when we slapped the Sigma Art on the a7R II, pretty much every single shot was in focus. You'll note that none of the shots in this video show any sort of systemic front or back focus. Put simply, no calibration is needed for accurate shots at F1.4 with the a7R II, because the system is accurate to begin with, as phase measurements are made on-sensor and do not need any correction factors for optical artifacts like residual spherical aberration. This is potentially game-changing: focus at F1.4 without microadjustment? Yes, please."

it should remove all questions about lens availability on sony cameras.

07-02-2015, 09:21 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
it's the final nail in the dslr coffin:
Most certainly not.

First, DSLRs still have OFVs, better battery life, better handling, etc.

Second, the AF system used in the Sony A7R II has limitations like low-light weakness, focus from extreme defocus, etc. One of the biggest issues appears to be the inability to specify a focus target with non-Sony lenses. Basically none of the many test shots from the first DPReview video were usable. Perhaps DPReview haven't used the camera properly but they explicitly mention this point as a shortcoming.

Also, I think they got the point about AF accuracy wrong. If the A7R II truly makes AF microadjustments superfluous then because it uses contrast AF in the last stage. PDAF will always be sensitive to lens problems whether it is AF module based or integrated into the main sensor.

07-02-2015, 09:46 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Most certainly not.

First, DSLRs still have OFVs, better battery life, better handling, etc.
why would anyone want to use a display that doesn't even tell you what the exposure of the picture is going to look like? can't focus with an ovf in low-light conditions... just say no.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Second, the AF system used in the Sony A7R II has limitations like low-light weakness, focus from extreme defocus, etc. One of the biggest issues appears to be the inability to specify a focus target with non-Sony lenses.
like pentax can do any of that any better?

canon 5ds and nikon d810 certainly can't:


07-02-2015, 02:36 PM   #114
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If i had existing Canon lenses, i would have already pre-ordered. The 5DS video didn't track nearly as well as the Nikon, and even the nIkon was worse than the A7RII. They have a graphic comparing the the Phase focus points relative to the Canon and Nikon, and its apples and oranges. Nikon's 51 phase focus points don't nearly compare to Sony's 399.

My Nex6 has something called "object tracking". Choosing it produces a tiny box which you then move the camera around the scene until the box is placed over an object, then click the center button of the four way controller. Then the camera follows that object around the whole screen depending on color and lighting. Sometimes it works very well, othertimes - not so much. It looks like the A7RII has come a long long long way from my Nex6 capabilities.

I would really like a camera where i can identify an actor on stage to the camera tracking module, and have the camera focus track him/her around the stage. With the right lens, i believe this camera is the one to do it.
07-02-2015, 03:14 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I would really like a camera where i can identify an actor on stage to the camera tracking module, and have the camera focus track him/her around the stage. With the right lens, i believe this camera is the one to do it.
If you are close enough and have had a change to save the face to the camera's memory, the A7II does a decent job of recognizing stored faces and tracking. It still has a ways to go before it is really good, but the high refresh rate of the new A7rII might really improve this.
07-02-2015, 08:49 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I would really like a camera where i can identify an actor on stage to the camera tracking module, and have the camera focus track him/her around the stage.
In theory, that's what for example Nikon, Canon and even Pentax can already do in LiveView with face detection AF and tracking (which the K-3 has).

Even using the optical viewfinder, Nikon and Pentax PDAF can certainly pick up skin tones and do face detection, with varying degrees of success, and use them to help tracking, plus use colour information to aid tracking. The Nikon face detection in PDAF seems particularly evolved - even the tiny 2000 pixel RGB sensor of the D610 manages to catch faces in PDAF, and highlight them in image playback too. The K-3's 86000 pixel RGB sensor is certainly capable of picking up faces in PDAF, and reporting them in the EXIF, but it doesn't seem as adept at using that info to aid AF, unfortunately.
07-03-2015, 12:03 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Most certainly not.

First, DSLRs still have OFVs, better battery life, better handling, etc.
You make it seem as if having an OVF is somehow better?

DSLRs don't have better battery life, they just use less power because they miss a lot of features. A bit like saying: "A vinyl record is better then mp3's because you turn over the record and play the other side too!"

And handing is personal. My K-5 was way to small for my hands. Makking my pinky and ringfinger fall off the grip. Very awkward. But for my wife's hands the K-5 is perfect.

Anyway, that video of the face/eye tracking of the A7rII is amazing. That is just outright cheating.
07-03-2015, 04:32 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You make it seem as if having an OVF is somehow better?

DSLRs don't have better battery life, they just use less power because they miss a lot of features. A bit like saying: "A vinyl record is better then mp3's because you turn over the record and play the other side too!"

And handing is personal. My K-5 was way to small for my hands. Makking my pinky and ringfinger fall off the grip. Very awkward. But for my wife's hands the K-5 is perfect.

Anyway, that video of the face/eye tracking of the A7rII is amazing. That is just outright cheating.
There is no arguing over taste.

Those who have used nice optical viewfinders often like them and prefer them, even if EVFs have all kinds of extra information available in them. Photography isn't rocket science and after you learn to see a scene through a good OVF, you don't need a histogram or flashing lights to tell you if your image is over or underexposed. On the other hand, using an EVF for too long tends to give me a headache. I haven't used the newest Sony ones, but it just gives me eye strain that looking at the world through an OVF doesn't do.[COLOR="Silver"]

Last edited by Rondec; 07-03-2015 at 04:51 AM.
07-03-2015, 10:27 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is no arguing over taste.

On the other hand, using an EVF for too long tends to give me a headache. I haven't used the newest Sony ones, but it just gives me eye strain that looking at the world through an OVF doesn't do.[COLOR="Silver"]
I looked into this a little bit. A lot of the problems, but not all, see to be related to flicker. I even discovered that the K3 - not sure about other Pentax models - has a "flicker" option in the Tool section part of the menu. One can choose between 50Hz(default) and 60 Hz.

Its very much getting to be a video world out there - need i mention smart phones, tablets, TV monitors, and machinery monitors of various kinds. And cameras don't just have EVFs, they have video monitors on the back as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_(screen)

QuoteQuote:
The lighting used in film projectors is typically an incandescent lamp or arc lamp, which does not flicker, but some degree of flicker is desirable to help decrease the flicker fusion threshold comfortably below film's typical framerate of 24 fps. This is usually accomplished with a shutter which causes the lamplight to apparently strobe on and off at a multiple of the framerate, most often 48–96 Hz.

The exact refresh rate necessary to prevent the perception of flicker varies greatly based on the viewing environment. In a completely dark room, a sufficiently dim display can run as low as 30 Hz without visible flicker.[citation needed] At normal room and TV brightness this same display rate would produce flicker so severe as to be unwatchable.

Chewing something crunchy such as Doritos or granola can induce flicker perception due to the vibrations from chewing synchronizing with the flicker rate of the display.[2]

Another factor in detecting flicker is peripheral vision. The human eye is most sensitive to flicker at the edges of human field of view, and least sensitive at the center of gaze (the area being focused on). As a result, the greater the portion of our field of view that is occupied by a display, the greater is the need for high refresh rates. This is why computer monitor CRTs usually run at 70 to 90 Hz, while TVs, which are viewed from further away, are seen as acceptable at 60 or 50 Hz (see Analog television Standards)
Its interesting that the room and display brightness can increase the perception of flickr. And notice the caution not to be chewing on crunchy stuff when viewing your EVF

Finally, the examples I found of headache causing EVFs, were not ALL EVFs but just some. So try them before buying if possible. i have to admit that the times i have engaged in long shoots - such as 1 to 2 hour dress rehearsals have all been done with the OVF of Pentax cameras. I should really rent a EVF camera with appropriate lens to see what extended shooting would feel like on an EVF. Others may know but i don't. All my evf shooting to day has been very short periods.
07-03-2015, 02:58 PM   #120
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I have noticed flicker with the Fuji XT-1 under fluorescent lights, but not with the A7II. the A7II EVF is better than any APS-C DSLR I have used, but not as good as some of the FF DSLRs I have used.
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