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07-19-2015, 03:05 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
My K-30 has neither for video.
Your K-30 video is stabilized in the same manner as the GX8...electronic IBIS. Dual I.S. (optical/electronic) is available with appropriate Panasonic and Leitz lenses, but not in 4K. For still photography, the GX8 offers full Dual I.S. using both optical and sensor shift. Very cool.

FWIW, the GX8 does not technically do 4K video either. Rather than following the GH4 in complying with the 4K broadcast standard, the GX8 records to the slightly more svelte UHD display specification. Go figure.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 07-19-2015 at 04:06 PM.
07-19-2015, 04:51 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Your K-30 video is stabilized in the same manner as the GX8...electronic IBIS.
Unfortunately the K-30 does not allow SR during video. It only offers digital/software-based shake reduction, which has some unfortunate and ugly side effects. This is one of the things that hinders the usefulness of the K-30 for video. You either have to pick shaky video, or a problematic stabilization gimmick. My old K-x allowed SR to be enabled during video, so I don't understand why they disabled it for some subsequent models.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Dual I.S. (optical/electronic) is available with appropriate Panasonic and Leitz lenses, but not in 4K. For still photography, the GX8 offers full Dual I.S. using both optical and sensor shift. Very cool.
I'm aware that the dual I.S. is not available for 4K (at least at this point), but it's still not clear to me whether the standard IBIS will be available. Lens OS of course will still work for video.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
FWIW, the GX8 does not technically do 4K video either. Rather than following the GH4 in complying with the 4K broadcast standard, the GX8 records to the slightly more svelte UHD display specification. Go figure.
Good point. I guess calling it 4K is a bit of a misnomer, but most people are more familiar with that term due to the way things have been marketed.

The GX8 shoots at 3840x2160, which is 1920x1080 with each dimension doubled. Since that is the resolution and format of so-called "4K" TV's, which are actually "UHD" (Ultra High Definition), I guess I've just slipped into the habit of referring to it as 4K, which is 4096x2160 (and may be used more in cinema?)

In the end, I think the distinction will not be worth making in most cases. Kind of like how widescreen has come to denote the 16:9 HDTV ratio as well as the very similar 1.85:1 ratio that is used for a lot of movies (much to my annoyance, lol), and is only fractionally wider than 16:9 (1.78:1).

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
IIRC, it was moved within hours of your original post...It is a sort of a shame that the thread is titled and framed as it is since it is likely there are a fair number of users who monitor this section of the site who are very interested in the GX8 and a lively discussion would likely have ensued
I do regret the title, since I think it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. As if I believed that I was God's gift to Pentax, and they better give me what I want. That wasn't my intention at all...it was just a one-line summation of my post: That I was contemplating leaving Pentax due to the advent of 4K and Pentax's lack of support for the new format.

I thought about a title involving GX8, but I didn't actually want the discussion to be about the GX8. That was just the most recent camera (and probably not the last) that demonstrates what I wish Pentax was doing.

Last edited by Edgar_in_Indy; 07-19-2015 at 05:02 PM.
07-19-2015, 05:37 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That reasoning is a little fuzzy. I have a number of photographer friends, most of whom are pretty serious about their craft. For the most part, they shoot Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Pentax. I know one Lumix shooter, though he primarily does video. I have asked most of my other friends whether they were happy with the video capabilities of their cameras and the general response has been a questioning look followed by something like, "I know it does that, but have never tried that feature". Often enough that is followed by, "Why? I have my phone for that". I know one person who purchased a Canon 7D primarily for video back in late 2010.


Steve
It's not fuzzy reasoning. I love in Los Angeles, and work as a cinematographer. I have also worked in cinema camera rentals. Literally everyone I know here takes video into consideration when buying a camera, and many people buy them because of it. I have had 4 people in the last week alone consult with me about which camera would work best for them for a combination of stills and video.

At the rental house, we frequently had DSLR projects. 100%of the time, the camera was a 5D. One television show used a Sony A7s. 1 music video used a GH3.

Video matters. At least in LA, which is one of the top consumer markets in the USA. I would guess it matters in nyc, too.

---------- Post added 07-19-15 at 05:40 PM ----------

Some further explanatiSome

All 4 of the people who consulted with me are actors. They were buying their cameras 90% for video. In other words, if they did not need their cameras for video, they weren't going to be buying cameras at all.
07-19-2015, 05:43 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Unfortunately the K-30 does not allow SR during video. It only offers digital/software-based shake reduction, which has some unfortunate and ugly side effects.
I believe that what I said is that both the K-30 and the GX8 support electronic IBIS for video. That is a little different than software editing of motion applied as a post-processing step.

QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
it's still not clear to me whether the standard IBIS will be available
According to Imaging Resource's recent preview, video IBIS on the GX8 is spec'ed to electronic only. Whether this is set in stone remains to be seen.

QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
The GX8 shoots at 3840x2160, which is 1920x1080 with each dimension doubled. Since that is the resolution and format of so-called "4K" TV's, which are actually "UHD" (Ultra High Definition), I guess I've just slipped into the habit of referring to it as 4K, which is 4096x2160 (and may be used more in cinema?)
DCI 4K is a recording standard and is directly applicable to camcorders and video capture devices. UHD is coincidentally a similar specification, but is tied to display devices. As such, captures using the GX8 will work fine with UHD devices but may not be compatible with tools and hardward designed for DCI 4K. To quote an article, "...the short answer is that 4K is sticking and UHD isn't...". At least that is their opinion. Even so, the story is a little more complicated and it may well be that the world will be split between consumer oriented UHD (effectively a 2160p specification) capture devices and commercial DCI 4K. Let's hope not.*

Panasonic GX8 Review: Hands-On Preview


Steve

* My phone supports UHD 2160p

07-19-2015, 05:54 PM   #80
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I know I've read a thousand of these threads....sometimes it's Pentax, sometimes Canon, sometimes Nikon, sometimes Sony...Fuji....Oly....the list is long...I'm leaving...I may leave...I've left......I may come back....I'm coming back soon.... I'm back!
The question I always ask is why am I here? I finally figured it out! These threads are like black holes and they just suck you in if you get close and the next thing you know you can't escape without some reply.

I replied, now I'll see if I can get out alive!

Regards!
07-19-2015, 05:55 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
It's not fuzzy reasoning. I love in Los Angeles, and work as a cinematographer. I have also worked in cinema camera rentals. Literally everyone I know here takes video into consideration when buying a camera, and many people buy them because of it.
Well, there you go! That makes perfect sense. People who are into video are into video and evaluate their gear from that perspective.

What I took you to originally say is that if Pentax had better video, it would be more prominent in the list of things Pentax users care about. My response was intended to suggest that most non-video shooters are not that concerned regardless of how good the camera's video is. It was dead last on my list and a novelty feature when I purchased my K-3.*

QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
If pentax users don't care about video, it is because there isn't a Pentax camera with video with caring about.
Forum posts are so "flat" and meaning is so often easily lost.


Steve

* I have enjoyed shooting the occasional clip, but would not pay more or even upgrade at this point just for 4K or other video feature.
07-19-2015, 05:57 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I believe that what I said is that both the K-30 and the GX8 support electronic IBIS for video. That is a little different than software editing of motion applied as a post-processing step. According to Imaging Resource's recent preview, video IBIS on the GX8 is spec'ed to electronic only. Whether this is set in stone remains to be seen.
Maybe we're not completely communicating here on this point. When I think of IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization), I am thinking of the sensor moving to compensate for shake. I do not consider software-based stabilization, where video is smoothed out by processing it and cropping the edges, as IBIS. The K-30 uses the processing/cropping method, not the sensor shake method.

In regards to the GX8, it has been stated with seeming authority that the Dual I.S. (Lens OS and Sensor IS working together) is not available with 4K. Has it been definitely stated the regular IBIS will not work in 4K? And that stabilization in 4K will only be provided using processing/manipulation of the video?

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
DCI 4K is a recording standard and is directly applicable to camcorders and video capture devices. UHD is coincidentally a similar specification, but is tied to display devices. As such, captures using the GX8 will work fine with UHD devices but may not be compatible with tools and hardward designed for DCI 4K.
My interest is being able to play my video clips on a 4K (er, UHD) TV, not to work with them in a professional/cinematic environment. So the fact that they are captured at 3840x2160 is ideal for me. But regardless, I don't see how somebody can say UHD's future in professional environments/workflows is questionable when that's what most television content will be broadcast in. There must be something there that eludes me.

07-19-2015, 06:02 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I replied, now I'll see if I can get out alive!
This is where someone says something nasty about squirrels and you are then totally committed for the duration.


Steve
07-19-2015, 06:17 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
This is where someone says something nasty about squirrels and you are then totally committed for the duration.
Oh please no! No squirrels in this thread, I beg! Once squirrels get in a thread you can't get them out and they hijack every aspect of the insanity and replace it with their own. It's worse than a black hole, it just keeps on growing until everyone in it is dead with exhaustion from trying to post around them.

Please, no one post any damn squirrels here, I am still trying to get out of here and if they get in here I am stuck for good.

Regards!
07-19-2015, 06:39 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What I took you to originally say is that if Pentax had better video, it would be more prominent in the list of things Pentax users care about.
That's the way I took it, and I think that's right. It makes sense.

If Pentax suddenly started to focus more on video and catered to video shooters to in a big way, then more of those types of people would buy Pentax going forward. And ergo, more Pentax users would care about video. Because the demographics of the user base would be different. As of now, Pentax video has been lackluster, so the universe of video-centric people who own Pentax is not expected to be very large.
07-19-2015, 06:45 PM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Maybe we're not completely communicating here on this point. When I think of IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization), I am thinking of the sensor moving to compensate for shake. I do not consider software-based stabilization, where video is smoothed out by processing it and cropping the edges, as IBIS. The K-30 uses the processing/cropping method, not the sensor shake method.
Fair enough. I don't believe it is done by the track/crop method, but it makes little difference. Your K-30 and my K-3 both smooth the jitters as part of image processing without sensor movement.

QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
In regards to the GX8, it has been stated with seeming authority that the Dual I.S. (Lens OS and Sensor IS working together) is not available with 4K. Has it been definitely stated the regular IBIS will not work in 4K? And that stabilization in 4K will only be provided using processing/manipulation of the video?
I believe so, if the folk at Imaging Resource are up to their normal level of veracity. My read is:
  • Video I.S. is "electronic" only (no sensor movement)
  • Dual I.S. for video is optical at the lens and electronic on the sensor
  • Dual I.S. is not available for 4K video
Who knows, perhaps this will change with a firmware upgrade.

Here is a snippet from the link I posted in the previous comment:

QuoteQuote:
For video recording, the Panasonic GX8 offers a version of Dual I.S. here as well. The sensor does not physically move in this case, but the GX8 provides an electronic image stabilization system that works in conjunction with the lens-based 2-axis system for a combined 5-axis Hybrid O.I.S. system. There's a caveat here as well, in that the video Hybrid O.I.S. does not work for 4K recording mode; only Full HD and lower resolutions.


Granted, the language in the quoted paragraph is a little ambiguous and may be taken to mean that for other than Dual I.S. video the system falls back to sensor shift, though the DPReview preview also appears to link the E.I.S to the video mode (LINK) Based on a reading from the two sites, it may be that no form of stabilization is available in 4K mode.

From DPReview:
QuoteQuote:
The GX8's movie capabilities are broadly the same as those in the G7: 4K (UHD) video capture with focus peaking and zebra. Digital image stabilization can be used when shooting 1080 footage, with this also combining with the in-lens stabilization to offer 5-axes of correction.
What I would take from all this is that while Pentax definitely does not offer in-body mechanical stabilization for video or 4K video resolution (645Z excepted), the situation with other brands is not that great for that combination of features either. I believe the Sony A7RII ($$$) is the only camera on the market that supports both features at present. You may want to wait another year before upgrading.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-19-2015 at 06:51 PM.
07-19-2015, 07:06 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What I would take from all this is that while Pentax definitely does not offer in-body mechanical stabilization for video or 4K video resolution (645Z excepted), the situation with other brands is not that great for that combination of features either. I believe the Sony A7RII ($$$) is the only camera on the market that supports both features at present. You may want to wait another year before upgrading.
Thanks for taking the time to share what you've learned. It helps. And you're right. The language does get ambiguous with all of the loosely defined and overlapping terms they're throwing around.
07-19-2015, 07:10 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I finally figured it out! These threads are like black holes and they just suck you in if you get close and the next thing you know you can't escape without some reply.

I replied, now I'll see if I can get out alive!

Regards!
I love it! Black holes: Nothing every comes out. Yes!!
07-19-2015, 08:46 PM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
I love it! Black holes: Nothing every comes out. Yes!!
Well, you just had to go and do it didn't you! You made Otis challenge your assumption that nothing ever comes out of a black hole......


Now I may never get out of here.

Regards! ...sort of.
07-19-2015, 10:42 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Well, there you go! That makes perfect sense. People who are into video are into video and evaluate their gear from that perspective.

What I took you to originally say is that if Pentax had better video, it would be more prominent in the list of things Pentax users care about. My response was intended to suggest that most non-video shooters are not that concerned regardless of how good the camera's video is. It was dead last on my list and a novelty feature when I purchased my K-3.*



Forum posts are so "flat" and meaning is so often easily lost.


Steve

* I have enjoyed shooting the occasional clip, but would not pay more or even upgrade at this point just for 4K or other video feature.
Well, you were mostly right about what I meant originally. What I really meant was that Pentax users don't care about video because people who care a lot about video don't BECOME Pentax users for the most part. Because Ricoh doesn't cater to us.

I still think it's a mistake to call it a niche, though. Can anyone here actually name 4 people they know in their city who have bought Pentax dslrs in the last decade? In other words, the number of people I know who were looking to buy Canon cameras last week because of video?
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