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07-17-2015, 09:12 AM   #1
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Confirmed - Canon Working on Fullframe Mirrorless Camera

Canon Files Patent Hinting at Full-Frame CSC Offerings | PhotographyBLOG

Confirmed - Canon Working on Fullframe Mirrorless Camera « NEW CAMERA

The core issue facing traditional DSLR makers, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, has been how to respond to the competitive threat of companies making mirrorless camera systems, especially those cameras containing larger sensors. These new mirrorless camera systems from Fuji, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus now occupy a significant share of the ILC marketplace, greater than 25% in total. All 3 traditional SLR camera companies have created mirrorless camera systems that have not been competitive with their flagship camera platform, and the results were underwhelming at best.

Theres only 2 credible responses available to the competitive mirrorless market threat: Either he company designs (A) a camera model based on a new shorter lens registration distance and designs/manufacturers all new lenses with the new registration distance; or (B) a camera model such as described in (A) but also designs an electronic adapter that allows existing modern SLR lenses to be used with the new mirrorless design.

The Sony corporation has chosen the (B) option with company designed adapters that enable A-mount lenses to be used with their E and FE mounts.

A patent by Canon has recently been published for an EF and EF-S lens adapter that would allow their existing modern lenses to be used on a FF mirrorless camera.

Some Pentax Forum members have previously suggested a new mount and mirrorless adapter strategy for K-mount lenses. The question remains as to whether Pentax and Nikon will follow the mirrorless strategy now being taken by Sony and Canon.

07-17-2015, 09:40 AM   #2
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if it has the typical canon weak d.r. and latitude, like the 5ds does, why would anyone want it.

especially if the a7rii can af eos glass in a halfway decent manner.
07-17-2015, 09:50 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Canon Files Patent Hinting at Full-Frame CSC Offerings | PhotographyBLOG

Confirmed - Canon Working on Fullframe Mirrorless Camera « NEW CAMERA

The core issue facing traditional DSLR makers, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, has been how to respond to the competitive threat of companies making mirrorless camera systems, especially those cameras containing larger sensors. These new mirrorless camera systems from Fuji, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus now occupy a significant share of the ILC marketplace, greater than 25% in total. All 3 traditional SLR camera companies have created mirrorless camera systems that have not been competitive with their flagship camera platform, and the results were underwhelming at best.

Theres only 2 credible responses available to the competitive mirrorless market threat: Either he company designs (A) a camera model based on a new shorter lens registration distance and designs/manufacturers all new lenses with the new registration distance; or (B) a camera model such as described in (A) but also designs an electronic adapter that allows existing modern SLR lenses to be used with the new mirrorless design.

The Sony corporation has chosen the (B) option with company designed adapters that enable A-mount lenses to be used with their E and FE mounts.

A patent by Canon has recently been published for an EF and EF-S lens adapter that would allow their existing modern lenses to be used on a FF mirrorless cadmera.

Some Pentax Forum members have previously suggested a new mount and mirrorless adapter strategy for K-mount lenses. The question remains as to whether Pentax and Nikon will follow the mirrorless strategy now being taken by Sony and Canon.
Seriously with the technology advance, all the weakness of mirrorless camera will catch up and become superior to DSLR. The EVF can be made larger and brighter than OVF. The focus speed can be much faster and more accurate using on sensor chips. And the cost also can be much lower than DSLR...
07-17-2015, 10:05 AM - 1 Like   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if it has the typical canon weak d.r. and latitude, like the 5ds does, why would anyone want it.

especially if the a7rii can af eos glass in a halfway decent manner.
I doubt that Canon plans on that situation continuing. Just very glad i don't work in the Canon sensor division

07-17-2015, 10:06 AM   #5
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this was a logical step from canon ... with their on-sensor af-sensors I was wondering why they did not compete with sony at the same time
07-17-2015, 11:17 AM   #6
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I saw a YouTube video the other day of someone mounting Canon's flagship 70-200 f2.8 L on a A7R2 with a smart Canon/E-mount AF adapter, and the Canon AF worked extremely well. No wonder Canon felt they had to move ahead with something mirrorless of it's own.

Apparently a Nikon/ E-mount smart adapter with full AF and metering support is also on it's way from China.

You could always mount all sorts of stuff on E-mount with adapters, but with this new wave of smart adapters Sony's cameras really seem to be evolving into true 'Adaptall' bodies. That could be very handy for consumers.
07-17-2015, 01:06 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I saw a YouTube video the other day of someone mounting Canon's flagship 70-200 f2.8 L on a A7R2 with a smart Canon/E-mount AF adapter, and the Canon AF worked extremely well. No wonder Canon felt they had to move ahead with something mirrorless of it's own.

Apparently a Nikon/ E-mount smart adapter with full AF and metering support is also on it's way from China.

You could always mount all sorts of stuff on E-mount with adapters, but with this new wave of smart adapters Sony's cameras really seem to be evolving into true 'Adaptall' bodies. That could be very handy for consumers.
I've got to hunt that video down. With the prices of lenses being what they are, i wouldn't be surprised that Canon will make as much money off lenses as Sony will make off the body. Its a win-win situation. I have a Canon friend who has preordered the A7RmII.

07-17-2015, 07:53 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I've got to hunt that video down.
It's in Chinese, so I don't fully understand it, but you can see the AF at work:
07-18-2015, 04:50 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if it has the typical canon weak d.r. and latitude, like the 5ds does, why would anyone want it.

(...)
Indeed, how does it happen that ca. 45% of DSLRs are being sold by Canon?
07-18-2015, 06:41 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Canon Files Patent Hinting at Full-Frame CSC Offerings | PhotographyBLOG

Confirmed - Canon Working on Fullframe Mirrorless Camera « NEW CAMERA

The core issue facing traditional DSLR makers, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, has been how to respond to the competitive threat of companies making mirrorless camera systems, especially those cameras containing larger sensors. These new mirrorless camera systems from Fuji, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus now occupy a significant share of the ILC marketplace, greater than 25% in total. All 3 traditional SLR camera companies have created mirrorless camera systems that have not been competitive with their flagship camera platform, and the results were underwhelming at best.

Theres only 2 credible responses available to the competitive mirrorless market threat: Either he company designs (A) a camera model based on a new shorter lens registration distance and designs/manufacturers all new lenses with the new registration distance; or (B) a camera model such as described in (A) but also designs an electronic adapter that allows existing modern SLR lenses to be used with the new mirrorless design.

The Sony corporation has chosen the (B) option with company designed adapters that enable A-mount lenses to be used with their E and FE mounts.

A patent by Canon has recently been published for an EF and EF-S lens adapter that would allow their existing modern lenses to be used on a FF mirrorless camera.

Some Pentax Forum members have previously suggested a new mount and mirrorless adapter strategy for K-mount lenses. The question remains as to whether Pentax and Nikon will follow the mirrorless strategy now being taken by Sony and Canon.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/138-pentax-k-01/173877-pentax-k-01-vs-fuj...mpus-om-d.html
In this thread a couple of years ago I argued that instead of the K-01 Pentax should have introduced a new mirrorless mount and shipped it with an adapter or legacy glass. Exactly what Sony has been hugely successful with. As i have said 1,000 times. Pentax should have launched a mirrorless K-1000 body with an adapter for full K-mount support and continued to develop the system. IF they had done it back then we would probably be looking at a new mirrorless LX body with the new 42MP sensor and a new line of FA Limited primes for it today. I could be using my 31mm LTD on it with an adapter just like I do with my Sony A7II, except Pentax could have made an adapter with the screw drive motor built into it.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time. Mirrorless still has not caught up to the DSLR, but gaining very fast while offering more flexibility. The A7rII will probably outperform the Canon 5DII generation bodies in every way but battery life, and the Canon 5DIII generation bodies in most ways.
07-18-2015, 05:04 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Indeed, how does it happen that ca. 45% of DSLRs are being sold by Canon?
how is it that you can't see the weak d.r. and latitude that canon sensors have?

or maybe you do, and that's just sarcasm :-)
07-19-2015, 11:18 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/138-pentax-k-01/173877-pentax-k-01-vs-fuj...mpus-om-d.html
In this thread a couple of years ago I argued that instead of the K-01 Pentax should have introduced a new mirrorless mount and shipped it with an adapter or legacy glass. Exactly what Sony has been hugely successful with. As i have said 1,000 times. Pentax should have launched a mirrorless K-1000 body with an adapter for full K-mount support and continued to develop the system. IF they had done it back then we would probably be looking at a new mirrorless LX body with the new 42MP sensor and a new line of FA Limited primes for it today. I could be using my 31mm LTD on it with an adapter just like I do with my Sony A7II, except Pentax could have made an adapter with the screw drive motor built into it.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time. Mirrorless still has not caught up to the DSLR, but gaining very fast while offering more flexibility. The A7rII will probably outperform the Canon 5DII generation bodies in every way but battery life, and the Canon 5DIII generation bodies in most ways.
Right on, sir! There's never as good of a time like the present. Ricoh/Pentax can look back on the experiences of Sony and Samsung and Canikon and learn from their mistakes. Look at what Sony did. They took stabilization out of the Body for the first Nex cameras and went to OIS in the lenses. Than with the A7II, they put IBIS back in the body. On a different feature, they designed a FF sensor into a 500gm body. Than they decided to put a stronger tripod mount and a all-metal lens mount back into the camera, bringing it up to 625gm in the latest iteration. They keep trying new things, improving, back-tracking when necessary.

OVF and pentaprism's have had their day. They greatly restrict a designer's ability to innovate with the body design. Sony and Canon have shown their hand, using an factory designed (and other) adapters to enable the use of legacy lenses - in an electronic manner - yea!!!! Admittedly, the Canon decision is only showing up in a Canon patent, but what should Pentax wait for - finished mirrorless FF models by Canon and Nikon. When is it safe enough for Pentax to go swimming in the mirrorless pond - i say now!

Critics only debate the value of the OVF vs EVF as relates their output. What they don't want to talk about is the impact that decision has on the rest of the camera. The new Sony A7RII has the largest (and brightest) VF of any FF camera. Canikon can't follow suit without adding weight and volume to the body, in excess of Sony. Video signals are easy to manipulate and move around - not so penta prisms. Because EVFs are so much brighter than OVFs in many situations, OVF designers have come up with "Liveview" - which is just clunky and cumbersome, IMO.

I recently examined my 40" TV display, i could not find any mirror behind it. I've yet to find anyone getting nauseous from the Tv LCD/LED display - whatever it is. I've examined the LCD backup display in my volkswagen - couldnt find a mirror behind it either and have yet to hear of anyone getting nauseous from looking at it. I even examined my smartphone - couldn't find a mirror behind it and have never heard of anyone getting nauseous from it either.

---------- Post added 07-19-15 at 11:28 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It's in Chinese, so I don't fully understand it, but you can see the AF at work:
A7RII+CANON EF 70200 test SONY - YouTube
Thanks for that. The Canon lens accessiblity is a key factor, not the only one, for me getting that camera.
07-19-2015, 11:57 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Right on, sir! There's never as good of a time like the present. Ricoh/Pentax can look back on the experiences of Sony and Samsung and Canikon and learn from their mistakes. Look at what Sony did. They took stabilization out of the Body for the first Nex cameras and went to OIS in the lenses. Than with the A7II, they put IBIS back in the body. On a different feature, they designed a FF sensor into a 500gm body. Than they decided to put a stronger tripod mount and a all-metal lens mount back into the camera, bringing it up to 625gm in the latest iteration. They keep trying new things, improving, back-tracking when necessary.

OVF and pentaprism's have had their day. They greatly restrict a designer's ability to innovate with the body design. Sony and Canon have shown their hand, using an factory designed (and other) adapters to enable the use of legacy lenses - in an electronic manner - yea!!!! Admittedly, the Canon decision is only showing up in a Canon patent, but what should Pentax wait for - finished mirrorless FF models by Canon and Nikon. When is it safe enough for Pentax to go swimming in the mirrorless pond - i say now!

Critics only debate the value of the OVF vs EVF as relates their output. What they don't want to talk about is the impact that decision has on the rest of the camera. The new Sony A7RII has the largest (and brightest) VF of any FF camera. Canikon can't follow suit without adding weight and volume to the body, in excess of Sony. Video signals are easy to manipulate and move around - not so penta prisms. Because EVFs are so much brighter than OVFs in many situations, OVF designers have come up with "Liveview" - which is just clunky and cumbersome, IMO.
Once the DR, resolution, refresh rates, & color fidelity exceeds what the human eye can perceive, then the OVF will be all but dead. At this point it is a matter of cost. Sony has the technology and the processing power. The same applies with AF speed. AF speed is a matter of processing power and how fast/many times per-second the processor can read the sensor.
07-29-2015, 09:21 PM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Once the DR, resolution, refresh rates, & color fidelity exceeds what the human eye can perceive, then the OVF will be all but dead. At this point it is a matter of cost. Sony has the technology and the processing power. The same applies with AF speed. AF speed is a matter of processing power and how fast/many times per-second the processor can read the sensor.
In a friendly discussion way, i don't believe that to be successful, EVFs have to equal the human eye in all respects, I don't use EVFs to watch movies with, i have a TV for that and a larger monitor to process images. I just use it for 1/2 minute or less to frame and take still pictures. Its a "view" "finder", thats all.Videographers are using 100% EVFs to take their videos with, but for some strange reason, EVFs are not good enough for some still photographers. No big thing to me, there are 3 manufacturers making OVFs so they are not dying anytime soon. And Sony has already supplied me with an EVF in my Nex6. I'm happy.

If the Sony A7RII is as big of a hit as early indications would suggest, than perhaps Canikon and Pentax might get more motivated to offer parallel EVF models. It'll be interesting to watch. Sony's list price is $500 over the D810 which i consider to be one of Nikon's premium models. Two days ago, a fellow photo club member invited me over to his backyard which is set up with a water feature and several plants friendly to hummers and other small birds. In a blind on his rear deck, he shoots with either of his 2 D4, one set up with a 200-400 and the other reaches out to 800mm while he drinks coffee in the morning and reads his paper. A pretty cool setup. So for about 90 minutes, i talked with him while shooting with the D4 he assigned me. It was quick at static focusing and optical quality was really fine when the focus grabbed the right subject - not always easy in some brushy plants with hummers flying around. It was excellent equipment, the only quibble i had was the loud shutter. And when i did a high burst occasionally, i found a blue jay and a few other birds look in my direction to see what the noise was about. I didn't say a word but my friend stated his opinion that the hummers seem to get acclimated to the shutter sound. And then he also said something about shutter shock. Forget the context on that. This from a diehard Nikon fan.

We don't have a large photo club, but about 20 showed up this last Monday. One of our Canon owners has preordered the Sony A7RII to go with his Canon lenses and a few new Sony ones. Another member who always buys Sony has his A7RII on preorder and reports his neighbor also has ordered one. The D4 has some advantages over the Sony A7RII, but Nikon needs to keep their eye on their rear view mirror(less) competitor, who has not one, but two quiet modes in their new model.

Last edited by philbaum; 07-29-2015 at 09:32 PM.
07-29-2015, 10:37 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
parallel EVF models
Or one body with different modes?

A Pentax with a switchable OVF/EVF could work. Or even a OVF model with a plug-in EVF. Or an EVF with a plug-in active OVF. Or a hybrid OVF with a rich EVF overlay.

Lots of possible permutations, patents permitting.

And speaking of the A7 r II, any talk of a smart E-mount to K-mount adapter being produced by anyone yet (ie one that does screw or SDM AF)?
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