[mecrox]

the market won't respond to yet another 24mp ff camera, pentax needs to hit a home run here, something that is high tech yet very cost effective, because cheap is the niche that they live in.

things like pixel shifting aren't going to be enough.

I agree that just another 24mp FF camera isn't going to set any world on fire, but "cost effective, because cheap" is the niche Pentax used to live in but cannot live in any longer. The 645z shows which way Ricoh plan to go. "Cheap" is out. Fully but fairly priced is in. Any other way is a route to closure, imho.

I think FF is best seen as the first step in a long-term plan to take the whole Pentax line up the market like every other camera-maker. It's quite likely that APS-C will gradually become a low-margin wasteland for all except the big boys. Smartphones will eat away large parts of it and the low-margin high-volume bargain basement crowd will take a chunk of the rest. It's not an inviting prospect for a company like Ricoh. Where that leaves outfits like Fuji or Olympus is a good question and I am glad I don't have to answer it. If asked to guess I'd say that Fuji may start laying off their bets by trying a mirrorless medium-format camera. The argument for it isn't unpersuasive: in a market where bit by bit pretty well anyone who wants an FF eventually gets one, the only way for the top dogs to keep ahead of the pack is by moving up one rung on the ladder, so medium format at the 645z kind of level may well be an expanding area.

For this reason I don't think fireworks are necessary for the first Pentax FF and we should not expect them. Very competent and polished, a step above what Pentax managed until Ricoh came along, is more like it. Such a camera doesn't have to appeal to the buyer of the A7R mk II. What it needs to do is persuade 30,000 people to fall in love with it, half to two-thirds of them in Japan. If Ricoh manage that with step #1, they will have succeeded.

[pinholecam]

I have the A7K (kolari modified) and its for the better use for MF lenses.
Beyond that, I really think I'd prefer a Pentax FF (or camera for that matter).
Better interface, better thought out photographically.
AF is certainly also a plus.


The Pentax primes are some of the best all things considered (size, price, build, performance ) .
In fact, they are some of the best to use on an A7 with those smallish sizes.
I'd certainly disagree that the A7 series is the best for Leica glass (too many off center smearing issues - I've tried enough to know and why I went for the Kolari modification)

A7rII?
I consider myself past the spec envy.
24mp is plenty (esp one with AA filter removed) ; Enough for a guy shoots for a hobby and who prints his own A3+.
Lenses that are fully electronic, I don't trust to put too much money into in the long run. (I do have FE55, sold the FE35)
Sony's track record is one thing I distrust. (look at where A, E mount are now)
One fine day (say 10yrs time), they exit the market due to poor earnings or move on to the latest and greatest FE-2 mount, the lenses w/o native cameras will be hard to make to work on anything else.
I can imagine the frustrations with those guys who bought into those expensive CZ A-mount lenses. (Things also looked so sure just 8yrs back with Sony and A-mount)
Lens size is also questionable in some cases. (esp the zooms and longer FL, perhaps not benefiting from a rear lens element that can junt into the mount as most WA lenses can )
As a lens junkie, I also want rendering, different drawing styles, bokeh, contrast styles more than just sharpness on the edges at wide open.
Not to get me wrong, but the FE primes so far have been nice.
I just rather not put my lot there for above reasons.


As for the Pentax FF.
Well, it might end up to be 42mp too.
But it will be what it is, and for my many Pentax FF lenses that have AF, that will be the only choice I have.
Looking at the K3, K3II, I really don't see how it can be too wrong.

[Winder]

I would be surprised if we don't see a version of the Sony 42MP sensor in the FF. Sony could produce a stripped down version of the chip without PDAF and 4K support. Regardless of the sensor, Ricoh has to finally produce a competitive AF. All sensors currently used are amazing. It doesn't matter if you are shooting Olympus, Fuji, Pentax, or Samsung. The IQ of all modern sensors is excellent. Ricoh will have to separate itself from the pack with its support technologies like AF. I personally think the K-3 is the best built DSLR under $4,000. You have to go to a 1DX or D4 to get better quality and weather sealing.

What other support technologies can Ricoh implement?
Better connectivity
More customizable JPEG profiles and in camera processing. Why can't I create my own JPEG profiles and upload them to the camera or share them with other people?
Auto lens calibration. There is no reason to have to manually calibrate lenses.
Hybrid OVF

---------- Post added 08-07-15 at 07:40 PM ----------

I'd certainly disagree that the A7 series is the best for Leica glass (too many off center smearing issues - I've tried enough to know and why I went for the Kolari modification)

https://plus.google.com/106990676031669199820/posts/XFcskarmgTM
"Sony A7RII + Leica M mount lenses (The trouble lenses)

Here are some 100% crops and frames, quickly taken with an A7RII and two big "trouble" lenses for Leica M mount. The Summicron 35mm f/2 has a somewhat symmetrical design and shows substantial smearing on the A7r (ver 1) as well as color shifts at the edges.

The ZM 18mm displayed completely smeared corners and colors shift that extended into ~20% of the frame on the A7r (v1).

I can gladly report that the A7RII has really overcome these barriers, and really rivals my Leica M 240. Probably better, but I can't say without more testing."

[rawr]

What it needs to do is persuade 30,000 people to fall in love with it, half to two-thirds of them in Japan. If Ricoh manage that with step #1, they will have succeeded.

A nice cogent analysis, with a practical target. It probably closely aligns with how Ricoh HQ sees things.

[pinholecam]

I would be surprised if we don't see a version of the Sony 42MP sensor in the FF. Sony could produce a stripped down version of the chip without PDAF and 4K support. Regardless of the sensor, Ricoh has to finally produce a competitive AF. All sensors currently used are amazing. It doesn't matter if you are shooting Olympus, Fuji, Pentax, or Samsung. The IQ of all modern sensors is excellent. Ricoh will have to separate itself from the pack with its support technologies like AF. I personally think the K-3 is the best built DSLR under $4,000. You have to go to a 1DX or D4 to get better quality and weather sealing.

What other support technologies can Ricoh implement?
Better connectivity
More customizable JPEG profiles and in camera processing. Why can't I create my own JPEG profiles and upload them to the camera or share them with other people?
Auto lens calibration. There is no reason to have to manually calibrate lenses.
Hybrid OVF

---------- Post added 08-07-15 at 07:40 PM ----------


https://plus.google.com/106990676031669199820/posts/XFcskarmgTM
"Sony A7RII + Leica M mount lenses (The trouble lenses)

Here are some 100% crops and frames, quickly taken with an A7RII and two big "trouble" lenses for Leica M mount. The Summicron 35mm f/2 has a somewhat symmetrical design and shows substantial smearing on the A7r (ver 1) as well as color shifts at the edges.

The ZM 18mm displayed completely smeared corners and colors shift that extended into ~20% of the frame on the A7r (v1).

I can gladly report that the A7RII has really overcome these barriers, and really rivals my Leica M 240. Probably better, but I can't say without more testing."

As far as I can confirm from a friend.
Color cast is reduced to gone, no comment on smearing yet.

And from a larger pool of opinions.
Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :( - FM Forums


I remember some folks claiming the same (Brian Smith did) for the A7r when these cameras were about to launch.
In the end, it took more even minded folks to test and show that it was not so.
So I'd rather advise against the euphoria ...again

[bibz]

Yet to see a good pic from one of these things. I'm sure the weekend will bring some nice light to someone with one, but I still think it's too expensive. I'm not sure I'd care between 36 and 42mp. BSI isn't going to do much at all imo, and might harm low iso performance. I'm sure many will be stoked with the camera, as sony has been adding genuine and useful improvements with each new model, but I'm still not convinced of this series of camera. Wide angle stuff, evfs not being good enough etc

Something tells me sony is enjoying the margins on these guys waaay more then the a6000, which is still pretty much a standard and class leading in a lot of ways.

[Rondec]

We'll see how it tests. It seems like the big reason to get one of these over an A7r is for sensor stabilization and video. Maybe those will end up making it worth the extra cost, but seems like video in a small body can be problematic due to heat issues.

[philbaum]

As far as I can confirm from a friend.
Color cast is reduced to gone, no comment on smearing yet.

And from a larger pool of opinions.
Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :( - FM Forums


I remember some folks claiming the same (Brian Smith did) for the A7r when these cameras were about to launch.
In the end, it took more even minded folks to test and show that it was not so.
So I'd rather advise against the euphoria ...again

Well I went to your quote and it talks about 1 troublesome 35 sumicron lens which had problems on the other A7R and A7II lens - but also how well the native 35mm f2.8 lens did.

Early days, and i'm not going to be upset because it has problems with one RF lens design. So far the low light A7RmII tests i've seen have looked good up to 12,800. As to cost at $3200. I can't see Sony pricing the first backlit FF sensor at 42mp, at lower cost than the D810 non-backlit sensor with 36mp. I'd be very surprised if Pentax doesn't follow suit with pricing, i.e. close to $3000. The Canon 5Ds with 50 retails around 3700, doesn't it? Dang thing with Sony, they don't seem to drop their prices very fast. The A7s is still at the original list price i believe. As popular as this model has been, i'm not expecting it to drop in price very fast either.

But yea - euphoria is not called for - with any new camera - they all have warts somewhere :-)

I

[pinholecam]

Well I went to your quote and it talks about 1 troublesome 35 sumicron lens which had problems on the other A7R and A7II lens - but also how well the native 35mm f2.8 lens did.

Early days, and i'm not going to be upset because it has problems with one RF lens design. So far the low light A7RmII tests i've seen have looked good up to 12,800. As to cost at $3200. I can't see Sony pricing the first backlit FF sensor at 42mp, at lower cost than the D810 non-backlit sensor with 36mp. I'd be very surprised if Pentax doesn't follow suit with pricing, i.e. close to $3000. The Canon 5Ds with 50 retails around 3700, doesn't it? Dang thing with Sony, they don't seem to drop their prices very fast. The A7s is still at the original list price i believe. As popular as this model has been, i'm not expecting it to drop in price very fast either.

But yea - euphoria is not called for - with any new camera - they all have warts somewhere :-)

I

I brought up this issue on suitability for use of RF lenses because it was claimed that this A7rii is the best for them.

Its not just this lens though.
The unfortunate thing is that the nice small wides are the ones with the edge smearing problems (too acute an angle for the light beams from the lens rear to the sensor edges).
Zeiss Biogon designs, the CV21/4, CV 25/4 Color Skopar, 24 Elmar.

The very small, well made RF lenses are what attracts many folks to want to use on an A7 series camera.
Imagine a 35/1.4 that is half the size of that native FE35.
Also a 21/4 that is the size of a pile of 6-7 $1 coins.


The ones with less issues on the A7 remains no issues on A7rii.
I learned a lot on what lenses to avoid from the very generous info provided by these folks on FM forums.
These wides that have less/no issues are generally the newer designed ones (which tend to be larger too).

The good of the new BSI sensor is that the color cast and some of the vignetting is gone.
So some lenses that are already good on the A7 series (eg. CV12/5.6 and arguably the CV15 v1/v2) will have one less problem to fix in post.


When this sort of money is involved, I'd advise on a wait and see a bit. (esp. when dealing with using RF lenses on it).
Wait for the dust to settle a bit and see what works and what does not.
As mentioned, all info on FM by those who have both lens and camera point to the smearing being largely the same as on the A7/A7II.

---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 09:21 AM ----------

Looks like Kolari vision managed to modify the A7II for the thin filter conversion.
So perhaps in the near future, the A7rII will be able to be modified too.
A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all! - FM Forums