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10-23-2015, 05:40 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by BeerBelly Quote
You're the only one calling people idiots, you're the only one bashing people's work. People tend to get defensive when you call them an idiot outright. You're also the only one low enough to stoop down to personal bashing...
Your photographic skills are lacking and so is your demeanor. You're too stubborn to take a step back and reflect on what you post...if you had the capacity to do that you might realize some of your errors.

You pretty much make a mockery out of every FF thread on here and I for one think this forum is a poorer place because of you. Now write what you wish and flame me for being an idiot and not seeing your way...
QuoteQuote:
You're also the only one low enough to stoop down to personal bashing...
What about you in this post. This is as personal as it gets.

OH, I get it, it's OK for you, just not for me.

Dude, have a beer. Chill out.

10-23-2015, 06:02 AM - 2 Likes   #47
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Thanks for all your contributions - nothing wrong with a debate - we are all different

@ normhead - firstly you need a chill pill - I've been taking photos since age 21 - professionally then purely as a hobby - I joined the Pentax Forum when I bought the K10D, so I know the forum very well. The NON-PENTAX forum was created purely for togs that bought into another brand - if you have issues with this, mouth off at the site moderators

I know all about damn tripod work ISO 100 aka asa 100 - geez I shot 6x6 Kodachrome 64 slide film and Fuji Velvia for years - I did surf photographer without autofocus, with tripod and no motor drives - so listen mate you not talking to someone that can't tell the difference.

I don't care what anyone says - the D750 shoots cleaner at all ISO than my D7000 - it retains it's dynamic range and colour fidelity up to ISO 8000 or my trained eyes are bullshitting me.

Did you go off at every entry in the Non-Pentax forum re: A7R A7S - Fuji XT1 D700, Canon MKD111.

Ive shot some brilliant pics with my K10D and also my D7000 and I still have those dslr - I've also shot some brilliant photos with my Sony RX100, which I take with me when I mountain bike or rock climb.

Indoor climbing events are very challenging and the go to dslr was the D3s or Canon 5D MK3 or Nikon D700 - all super high clean ISO champions - the D750 fills that role easily as I showed above.

Indoor climbing comps need at least an 5.6 f stop and min 1/250th sec which means ISO 6400 and above - I did this with my D7000 but needed to spend hours in doing noise removal - the D750 eliminated this task. Yay more relax time for me

Any decent tog can get great pics with any camera so you don't need to boast as if you are superior

D7000







Sony RX100



K10D










I could bore you even further images ad nauseum to show you I can do the job at hand - I feel I can only improve with the D750 over the next 6 years

The whole point of the post was for anyone that might be interested in purchasing this dslr and once again ....drum roll... thats why it's in the NON-PENTAX Forum
10-23-2015, 06:12 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What about you in this post. This is as personal as it gets.
It seems to be the only kind of response you understand.
10-23-2015, 06:16 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
Thanks for all your contributions - nothing wrong with a debate - we are all different

I could bore you even further images ad nauseum to show you I can do the job at hand - I feel I can only improve with the D750 over the next 6 years

The whole point of the post was for anyone that might be interested in purchasing this dslr and once again ....drum roll... thats why it's in the NON-PENTAX Forum
Well, thanks for posting.... and good luck in the future. Despite some nit picking I actually quite enjoy seeing what's possible with various systems.

QuoteQuote:
I don't care what anyone says - the D750 shoots cleaner at all ISO than my D7000 - it retains it's dynamic range and colour fidelity up to ISO 8000 or my trained eyes are bullshitting me.
That's what we'd like to see, how much cleaner? For most of us, the big question in deciding to upgrade is what am I going to get for my money? If you are a pro, you might just go for the best based on the professional attitude of wanting to provide the best possible for your customers. For amateurs, it's always a question of "what is the best place to put the little bit of money I have for this? ". Camera body? Lens? New system? Add to the old system? And while you can't make choices for anyone, you can certainly provide info that helps make that choice.

SO, just following up on what you posted....
From Imaging Resources.... comparative images... at 6400, the K-3 image is pretty much un-useable from my perspective... where as the D750 is a little rough, definitely useable. If you shoot a lot in gyms, it's definitely a good choice as suggested, IMHO, and if I were shooting in those circumstances, I'd consider it.




Last edited by normhead; 10-23-2015 at 06:42 AM.
10-23-2015, 07:09 AM   #50
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I would like a full frame camera and hope to get one over the next couple of years, probably a second-hand D800 and a couple of second-hand prime lenses - because I won't use it nearly as much as a daily walkaround set-up like APS-C or M43 so blowing $$$ would be a waste of money. A few landscapes and church interiors, that's all.

In the meantime, I've not seen an image on this thread that couldn't have been taken with an M43 camera, e.g.. I am not trying to be critical, the shots in this thread are generally lovely and accomplished. The point is, none of the shots says to me "This could only have been taken on a full-frame camera and that is why it was used for the image". Within reason, I don't think less noise on a larger format is much of a clincher. On smaller formats, the noise is often not very noticeable anyway or can be ameliorated in post - or even accentuated in the case of a grainy hardcore BW image. That starts to leave printing and print size as about the only really decisive difference.

Again, I am not trying to be critical of any post, but there is a lot of wishful thinking out there generally about FF and camera formats. It gets even worse when people start throwing credit cards around and get into difficulties over what is, essentially, a fantasy. I am pretty sure I could use FF well and that some of my photography would benefit from it, but I still intend to stay well away from it for as long as possible. "FF" is rapidly becoming an industry and retail shark fest. In the meantime, the D750 is the camera to beat at its level in the market, no question.
10-23-2015, 07:51 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
the D750 is the camera to beat at its level in the market, no question.
At it's level of the market, and I would add, for 24 MP cameras as well, in general. It simply does more than most. Still there are a few things 24 MP APS-c does better. You always have weigh what you are giving up against what you are getting. At today's Henry's prices, $2350 CDN against $1150 for a K-3 II. But, if you do shoot a lot in gyms, it might be worth it. But "worth it" is totally subjective.

Just saying... if you take the pictures I take, you'll get better out of a k-3 for $650. If a large percentage of your images are pictures of rock climbing (or any pictures) in a gym, or any poorly lit environment, the extra money for a D750 might be worth it to you.

Last edited by normhead; 10-23-2015 at 08:00 AM.
10-23-2015, 08:21 AM   #52
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Why not post photos from 645z vs Canon 5Dsr. Both have roughly the same Mpixel count; the 645z render better images, but it's not the same price. And at any point in time , there is always a camera ahead of the others (benefit from the latest sensor improvements etc). So, if you always want to have the latest technology, you are going to have to spend fortunes... just to take photos! Waooww. When you have a D750, you feel that the D810 is better and then why not a D4, some dump it all after 3 years , too large , too heavy, they buy a Fuji or a Sony A7000 so that for the quality it delivers, they can have it in there bag. In Nikon and Canon camera shops here, we see second hand D800E, D610, Canon 5DII, even 5DIII and D750... I ask , why are you selling... the guy told me: this was too big, they purchased a Fuji XT1 instead.

10-23-2015, 08:38 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I would like a full frame camera and hope to get one over the next couple of years, probably a second-hand D800 and a couple of second-hand prime lenses - because I won't use it nearly as much as a daily walkaround set-up like APS-C or M43 so blowing $$$ would be a waste of money. A few landscapes and church interiors, that's all.

In the meantime, I've not seen an image on this thread that couldn't have been taken with an M43 camera, e.g.. I am not trying to be critical, the shots in this thread are generally lovely and accomplished. The point is, none of the shots says to me "This could only have been taken on a full-frame camera and that is why it was used for the image". Within reason, I don't think less noise on a larger format is much of a clincher. On smaller formats, the noise is often not very noticeable anyway or can be ameliorated in post - or even accentuated in the case of a grainy hardcore BW image. That starts to leave printing and print size as about the only really decisive difference.

Again, I am not trying to be critical of any post, but there is a lot of wishful thinking out there generally about FF and camera formats. It gets even worse when people start throwing credit cards around and get into difficulties over what is, essentially, a fantasy. I am pretty sure I could use FF well and that some of my photography would benefit from it, but I still intend to stay well away from it for as long as possible. "FF" is rapidly becoming an industry and retail shark fest. In the meantime, the D750 is the camera to beat at its level in the market, no question.
To me, there are two issues that you face when dealing with smaller sensor sizes. The biggest one is the availability of lenses. There are just not as many wide/fast lenses with smaller sensors as with full frame -- you won't find a 35mm f1.4 "equivalent" lens for either four thirds or for APS-C. The other thing is the issue of performance -- camera companies, in general, put high end auto focus systems in these full frame cameras and few crop sensor cameras match up well against them, particularly when it comes to tracking.

Few of the shots in this thread really would require a particular sensor size -- particularly not when we are viewing images at we b sizes, but obviously there are plenty of situations which would require a full frame sensor.
10-23-2015, 02:45 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
To me, there are two issues that you face when dealing with smaller sensor sizes. The biggest one is the availability of lenses. There are just not as many wide/fast lenses with smaller sensors as with full frame -- you won't find a 35mm f1.4 "equivalent" lens for either four thirds or for APS-C. The other thing is the issue of performance -- camera companies, in general, put high end auto focus systems in these full frame cameras and few crop sensor cameras match up well against them, particularly when it comes to tracking.

Few of the shots in this thread really would require a particular sensor size -- particularly not when we are viewing images at we b sizes, but obviously there are plenty of situations which would require a full frame sensor.
For me, what I will look for in a Pentax FF will be, resolution and Dynamic range. The D750 seems to be a couple stops better in functional dynamic range/ noise, at high ISO, to me, the IR 6400 ISO images look about like my 1600 ISO images, so even if you normalize DoF you're a stop ahead, and two stops ahead in a situation where you don't need to normalize Depth of Field. That is also a function of the processing in the D750 be it sensor sensitivity or superior in camera image processing, that I would personally look for. But, whether or not you can do that in a 36 MP sensor is another issue altogether. My expectation is that the Pentax FF will not give you what a D750 will give you, but it might give you what a D810 will give you. If you want a d750 don't wait for Pentax, you have to buy a D750. You have to give the D750 that it was designed for a specific set of photographic parameters, and if that's what you need, don't wait on Pentax to provide it. It's very unlikely the FF will measure up in either AF performance or high ISO performance. Although we would expect it to exceed a D750 for landscape, still life and low ISO dynamic range.

Even after the Pentax FF is released, it is very likely, if you admire the D750, it will still be your only choice. And a number of people on the forum realized that a while ago and already have theirs.

Last edited by normhead; 10-23-2015 at 04:34 PM.
10-24-2015, 11:36 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I would like a full frame camera and hope to get one over the next couple of years, probably a second-hand D800 and a couple of second-hand prime lenses - because I won't use it nearly as much as a daily walkaround set-up like APS-C or M43 so blowing $$$ would be a waste of money. A few landscapes and church interiors, that's all.

In the meantime, I've not seen an image on this thread that couldn't have been taken with an M43 camera, e.g.. I am not trying to be critical, the shots in this thread are generally lovely and accomplished. The point is, none of the shots says to me "This could only have been taken on a full-frame camera and that is why it was used for the image". Within reason, I don't think less noise on a larger format is much of a clincher. On smaller formats, the noise is often not very noticeable anyway or can be ameliorated in post - or even accentuated in the case of a grainy hardcore BW image. That starts to leave printing and print size as about the only really decisive difference.

Again, I am not trying to be critical of any post, but there is a lot of wishful thinking out there generally about FF and camera formats. It gets even worse when people start throwing credit cards around and get into difficulties over what is, essentially, a fantasy. I am pretty sure I could use FF well and that some of my photography would benefit from it, but I still intend to stay well away from it for as long as possible. "FF" is rapidly becoming an industry and retail shark fest. In the meantime, the D750 is the camera to beat at its level in the market, no question.
Dpreview describe D750 as having "fast continuous shooting" with "limited buffer size". Here's a midlevel camera that can only shoot 6.5 frames per second. That isn't very fast but i would note that many FF cameras can only shoot 5 fps per second - a subject most camera companies don't want to talk about :-) If you spend $6 to 7 thousand for a D4s, you can finally get a camera that shoots 11 fps.

A K3 can shoot 8.3 fps and costs only 6 to 7 hundred dollars. Or you can get 11 fps with a $600 A6000 Sony aps cam. Even my older Nex 6 could get 10 fps.

Does it matter. Well i found out it did about 2 months back. A director wanted me to catch this actor running and jumping in his costume. So i cranked out my K3 to highest burst rate and got the shot he wanted but barely. The first shot of any value was right after this actor left the ground, the 2nd shot was a good one and he was 4 to 5 feet off the ground, the 3rd shot he was back nearly to the ground. The point being that only one shot out of a high speed burst was any good. I always thought that 8.3 fps for a K3 was plenty of speed, found out that it's barely good enough.

As to buying a FF camera - i don't feel the need to convince anyone to buy one. With all thats been written about FF cameras, anyone with any sense will know if the time is right to buy one and what their need is. I bought the Sony A7RII and its actually better than i thought it would be. On the other hand, i know two that have bought the D750 and love it. To each their own decisions. (My own A7rII, BTW, only shoots 5fps burst rate - sigh - no camera is perfect).

Last edited by philbaum; 10-24-2015 at 11:45 PM.
10-25-2015, 03:30 AM   #56
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Obviously in the end, the only things you need to get full frame are: (1) Money necessary to purchase it and (2) Desire to own one. If both things are present, it will probably happen sooner rather than later. And no amount of DXO graphs and Imaging Resource photos will change someone's mind.

That's just fine.

I just think people need to be honest about why their K30 or K3 isn't working for them and often the issues aren't really camera issues and therefore won't be changed by buying a camera with a bigger sensor.
10-26-2015, 09:00 AM   #57
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Out of the 3 photography forums i visit, only on Pentax Forums do i find members that attempt to talk folks out of buying FF. Will this oddity die out when the Pentax FF gets on the market. I suspect so. Something to think about.

I'm retired, and photography is my hobby, vocation and how i meet interesting people in the arts. I enjoy all of it. At 3pm today, i meet with a director for a dinner theatre act, who's going to chat with me about the kind of photos they want for a promo shoot which is scheduled for 5:30pm outdoors. 3 people, 2 dogs may be involved. Not sure the dogs are a good idea, but hey, i'm here to help. Last time i worked with this director, i talked her into doing a shoot in the evening with the aid of a flash. It worked out well enough that she wants to repeat the experience. I've got 60-90 minutes for that shoot and then have to be at a photo club meeting where i'm the host for another 2 hrs.

Life's an adventure, might as well get the most out it. And FF can be a part of that adventure.
10-26-2015, 09:18 AM   #58
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Probably, on other forums, going FF doesn't mean selling all your gear and completely changing brands. It's a much more intensive process for the members of this forum. It's tough to watch some one make that decision based on expectations that aren't realistic. On the other hand, while I expect the Pentax FF to blow other FFs out of the water, for some images, just based on their pixel shift technology, there will never be a D750 type camera. But, buying a certain camera based on bad information about the values of certain features? I think that will always be here. At least I'd hope so. The comparisons here tend to be looked at feature by feature, for the photographers, and FF vs APS-c for many of those who post.The simple fact is, it was never an FF vs APS-c argument. It was a this feature vs that feature.

For example on a D750 vs K-3, you have faster AF on a D750, and slightly higher resolution (less than 10%) but a higher frame rate and bigger buffer on a K-3. It's not per se an APS_c vs FF trade off. When you get into a 6D, the trade off is that whatever sensor is used in the 6D though not as good low ISO performance, has very good high ISO performance. It's not an APS-c vs. FF argument, it's different features on different cameras argument. The longest discussions are with people who honestly believe, that there is a better camera or format, that is better for everything. Anyone who comes in eyes wide open gets very little discussion.

And the hardest people to convince are those who think because one FF camera does this or that, they all do. They look at images for a D3x, and assume all those features are available on the D610 they just bought. That's when the whole APS-c vs FF argument gets ridiculous. This FF camera has this and this APS-c camera doesn't have this, so every FF camera is better than every APS-c camera. There's a lot of educating to do. And most of it won't disappear because Pentax has an FF. What will disappear is people leaving the brand because they want to try out an FF, and see what it's like.

And it will be really good to hear the end of the "I want to use my 30 year old lenses used as they were designed to be used" type complaint. The excuse for that type of whining will be history, although if the Pentax FF really is $2500 people will be clamouring for a cheaper version.

I have 18mm to 400mm covered for a Pentax FF without buying a thing. That is a lot less hassle than buying into a whole new system. SO of course there won't be as many times when it might be inappropriate to buy a whole new system. It will be a $2500 dollar gamble, not a $6,000 dollar gamble.

The type of post I look forward to seeing the end of will be the " My Canikon FF is so much better than anything Pentax has to offer because it's FF", type of post. The ignorance displayed in some of those posts is off the charts. We've had more than a few newbies on here proclaiming themselves god's gift to photography because the bought a 6D, D610 or D800/810. That's what I look forward to seeing an end of.



I wonder if you get those on those other forums.

Last edited by normhead; 10-26-2015 at 09:36 AM.
10-27-2015, 08:38 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
. We've had more than a few newbies on here proclaiming themselves god's gift to photography because the bought a 6D, D610 or D800/810. That's what I look forward to seeing an end of.

I wonder if you get those on those other forums.
Congrats norm, that was a cogent reply. And of course other forums get similar aggravation.
10-28-2015, 03:42 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Out of the 3 photography forums i visit, only on Pentax Forums do i find members that attempt to talk folks out of buying FF. Will this oddity die out when the Pentax FF gets on the market. I suspect so. Something to think about.

I'm retired, and photography is my hobby, vocation and how i meet interesting people in the arts. I enjoy all of it. At 3pm today, i meet with a director for a dinner theatre act, who's going to chat with me about the kind of photos they want for a promo shoot which is scheduled for 5:30pm outdoors. 3 people, 2 dogs may be involved. Not sure the dogs are a good idea, but hey, i'm here to help. Last time i worked with this director, i talked her into doing a shoot in the evening with the aid of a flash. It worked out well enough that she wants to repeat the experience. I've got 60-90 minutes for that shoot and then have to be at a photo club meeting where i'm the host for another 2 hrs.

Life's an adventure, might as well get the most out it. And FF can be a part of that adventure.
Of course, the biggest issue right now is that Pentax doesn't have a full frame.

For me, I am really annoyed by the folks who show up and demean/look down on those who are still shooting APS-C and wouldn't understand the amazing-ness of shooting full frame. I would rather have folks look at my photos as they are, without so much focus on the size of the sensor in my camera.

Obviously not everyone does this, but there have been plenty of folks over time who show up to rain on the parade of folks that are still shooting crop sensors. People shoot crop sensors for many reasons. They don't have money for a full frame camera. They are a hobby photographer and are satisfied with crop frame. They haven't pushed the limits of their current camera. Their wife doesn't want them to buy one. Whatever the case is, I hope when I get a full frame camera some day that I don't bring up how full frame is a better option to people not shooting it.

I just have had a bad taste left in my mouth from some of those folks who have left and return just to rub our noses in the fact that their gear is better now than what they used to shoot. Maybe it has pushed me too far the other direction.
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