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10-15-2015, 08:24 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Have you ever owned one of those?
No, I prefer having the OVF on my Super-Ikonta!

10-15-2015, 08:47 AM   #32
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QuoteQuote:
so you are going to go from not even knowing where the sony website is, to suddenly becoming a sony expert? oh my
I'm not a Toyota expert , but I own a Toyota, I own a lot of things I don't go to sites for, but you want me to go to site for product I'm not interested in to become an expert. Is that how you waste your time?

But I have to confess, I usually get interested in cameras because I read interesting thoughtful posts from a cameras users, users who sound intelligent or at least knowledgeable. If I ever do investigate Sony it will be because I'm already in a store that has some I can handle. I'm not making a special trip just to see one, and because of posters like Christine Tham or Philbaum, posters that use the gear and can give you thought out and knowledgeable opinions. And my Sony questions are directed at them. Not these Sony shills promoting everything Sony says.

If I thought Sony gear only appealed to the likes of people like the Sony shills on this site, I would write it off completely. They may think they are hot shots, but they turn me off the brand by being so ignorant. It might not be fair to Sony, but ridiculous titles like "Pentax falls farther and farther behind" definitely affect my perception of the brand. I don't want to be associated with that kind of nonsense. If you see the world that way, you don't see the world the way I see it, and you've got nothing to say that's going to make any sense to me.

As for some dude going on about some camera he's never even seen or used based on marketing hype, and claiming Pentax has fallen further behind because he's read about it.... pfffft..

This is a 35mm fixed lens non-interchangeable lens FF camera, for $3000. WTF? Has Sony lost their marbles?

Are they going after Leica's market share... now there's a wining proposition.

Cause like guys who go around bragging about their Lieca's are now going to go around bragging about their Sonys. That's really deluded marketing strategy.

Last edited by normhead; 10-15-2015 at 09:01 AM.
10-15-2015, 12:03 PM   #33
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Okay, so Sony wins at cramming the maximum amount of new technology into their cameras - but does it make any real difference at the practical level, or are they just engaging in technological masturbation? If they are, let them - that will be effort well wasted while Pentax (hopefully) turns out a well-rounded and well-integrated package to rival the 645Z's success.

All this just confirms my impression that Sony are excellent at tech, lousy at cameras. Their R&D bill must be horrific, to say nothing of the cost-for-gain ratio.
10-15-2015, 12:31 PM   #34
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Neither Canon nor Nikon have a FF p&s, so I guess they're falling further behind as well. I'm sure they're quaking in their boots over the eight people who will buy it.

10-15-2015, 12:47 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
No, I prefer having the OVF on my Super-Ikonta!
I see. So you really don't know what it's like. I converted my Pentax 6x7 to also have a waist level finder as well. It is a useful interface that my not be optimal for all conditions but does have some advantages over a prism like all things there is a give-and-take.
10-15-2015, 01:33 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
"The current consensus among 17 polled investment analysts is to buy stock in Sony. This rating has held steady since October, when it was unchanged from a buy rating." SNE - Sony Forecast - CNNMoney.com

"The current consensus among 11 polled investment analysts is to hold stock in Ricoh Co Ltd. This rating has held steady since October, when it was unchanged from a hold rating." RICOY - Ricoh Co Ltd Forecast - CNNMoney.com
Advising investors to hold a sound stock, and buy other stock when it's at a low point is hardly surprising, but buying at a low should only be advised when there's good evidence to support its prospects for growth. Sony's frenetic activity in their imaging division may be construed by some to provide that evidence, but it could also amount to nothing more than flim-flam if they don't make a real and substantial profit.

It would be a pity if they don't, because some of that Sony wall of cameras are quite appealing, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating (ie the profits), not in the pudding (the cameras) itself, to correct an often-misquoted aphorism.
10-15-2015, 03:12 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Advising investors to hold a sound stock, and buy other stock when it's at a low point is hardly surprising
sony stock is up 32% ytd, that's hardly the definition of "low point".

ricoh is only up 6.4% ytd, it has 2 recommends to sell and 2 recommends for underperform... it's a weak stock.

QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Sony's frenetic activity in their imaging division may be construed by some to provide that evidence
i'd suggest that you do some research on what that sony "frenetic activity" actually was... because it's a whole lot bigger than just a couple of new camera bodies.

ricoh is projected to have a 358% median price increase in the stock price in the next 12 months? yet it only has one buy recommendation, vs. thirteen buy recommendations for sony.

10-15-2015, 06:56 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
sony stock is up 32% ytd, that's hardly the definition of "low point".

ricoh is only up 6.4% ytd, it has 2 recommends to sell and 2 recommends for underperform... it's a weak stock.

i'd suggest that you do some research on what that sony "frenetic activity" actually was... because it's a whole lot bigger than just a couple of new camera bodies.

ricoh is projected to have a 358% median price increase in the stock price in the next 12 months? yet it only has one buy recommendation, vs. thirteen buy recommendations for sony.
When are you measuring from, and which market? Sony's 1 Oct 2015 closing price on NYSE was 26.99, versus 1 Jul 2015 at 28.35 and 1 Apr 2015 at 30.23. Year on year it's a different story, being up from 19.82 twelve months ago, which is more like your 32%. The actual low point seems to have happened in 2012. Sony has been losing money in a lot of its operations, leading to the recent announcements about the phone and TV product lines, which may have added to the enthusiasm for buying its stock.

The Ricoh projection is the sort of anomaly that makes me wonder about the basis on which stock buy/sell recommendations are made, and hence my previous comment. Ricoh isn't in the sort of business that gets people excited, though.

It'll be interesting to see what the separation of Sony's sensor division brings about in the long run, nonetheless.
10-15-2015, 07:03 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
When are you measuring from, and which market?
the links i posted have the data... sony has made some very big changes.

i don't understand the ricoh stock situation at all.
10-15-2015, 09:51 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
If Sony has just now added 14-bit raw, they're the ones who are behind!

No but seriously, Pentax has always been a generation behind technologically, but they're ahead in other areas such as ergonomics and features for still photographers, so that balances things out.




Pentax ergonomics are tops.

---------- Post added 10-15-15 at 09:58 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have lots of angles that need to be in the non-Pentax gear threads. I can be just as obnoxious as these shills. They seem to think they have some kind of monopoly on being bores.

Norm, there is room for lots of threads. You CAN be an obnoxious as anyone else. What are you complaining about? Why are you commenting? I think Pentax needs to be spanked regularly until it releases a decent full frame camera. You can disagree with that if you like. Have you tried meditation?

---------- Post added 10-15-15 at 10:03 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
behind what? You're assuming, for some reason, that a fixed 35mm lens is better for everyone than the ability to choose a lens based off our needs.


Sony has multiple interchangeable lens full frame cameras. Now they have a pocketable full frame with a top notch lens. I am assuming that is preferable to zero full frame cameras.

---------- Post added 10-15-15 at 10:04 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Pentax falls farther and farther behind

Yes, it's not a race - so a comment like that is meaningless.
What the OP means to say is "Pentax falls farther and farther behind in my expectations" - which is why there are other brands to chose from.


You are correct about that.

---------- Post added 10-15-15 at 10:10 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
42mp for a street camera - does not make sense. The genre does not necessarily work well for 42mp, given the lack of control of the situation (movement blur, not the best light, subject movement, seldom presented in very large formats that need so high MP) Shoot shallow DOF to make use of that fast Zeiss 35/2, and 42mp is moot.


I disagree. High resolution in-focus subjects will stand out even more against out of focus areas. Great high ISO performance makes motion and low light les problematic than it once was.
10-15-2015, 10:36 PM   #41
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I love the concept, as I have said on another thread. I own a slew of lenses, but on my K-01 I have FA 31 ltd and the thing don't come off that often. No question the price is absurd, but I am sure it will come down close to 2G in a while. When I am wiling to carry around my 645D, then I might as well carry few lenses. I have come to accept that. But when I am walking around, shooting from the hips, almost to the point being completely indiscriminate on a whim, something like this is to me awesome. I would love FF GR just as much if not better. I wish they would do something like that. Really.
10-15-2015, 10:54 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote

I disagree. High resolution in-focus subjects will stand out even more against out of focus areas. Great high ISO performance makes motion and low light les problematic than it once was.


Perhaps you can show how more a 42mp shallow dof shot stands out from a 24mp one?


In practical use.
1. You are not always going to get it in focus due to subject movement.
2. Once you go high ISO, you give up on the resolution quality that was paid for.
10-16-2015, 02:25 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Doomed! So far behind Pentax is doomed!





Steve
With Sony and Zeiss recent frenetic release of cameras and lenses, here are my honest thoughts:

"What Pentax has been doing?!"
"Pentax could have just slapped a 24 or 36mp FF sensor in a K-3 and be done with it! It would still be a great camera."
"Pentax FF camera could be pushed even farther. I am wondering what they are thinking right now. "

Pentax is so far behind. But Pentax is not doomed yet. That's for sure.

Oh! I think @stevebrot is just joking.
10-16-2015, 02:41 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by januko Quote
With Sony and Zeiss recent frenetic release of cameras and lenses, here are my honest thoughts:

"What Pentax has been doing?!"
"Pentax could have just slapped a 24 or 36mp FF sensor in a K-3 and be done with it! It would still be a great camera."
"Pentax FF camera could be pushed even farther. I am wondering what they are thinking right now. "

Pentax is so far behind. But Pentax is not doomed yet. That's for sure.

Oh! I think @stevebrot is just joking.
I have heard this way too often and it is just wrong. If Pentax put a full frame sensor in a K3 body without any changes, you would have a disaster. Designing a full frame camera requires a new mirror box and a new SR module and a new auto focus module, minimum. And if Pentax released a full frame camera with any of the typical features folks have come to expect on a full frame camera lacking, it would be universally panned in reviews. Pentax is selling in the current marketplace and in a situation where people have the opportunity to buy a D810 or a A7r II or a D750, Pentax has to have camera that matches up well against those cameras.

From what I have seen, I think they will be successful, but I will admit I am optimistic. At the same time, I do not see Pentax's APS-C offerings giving up a lot to Canon/Nikon/Sony at this point, except when it comes to video performance. Each of their APS-C cameras seems reasonably priced and with specifications that match well against the competition. So, while Pentax may be farther and farther behind, you can't see it in lower levels of camera bodies.
10-16-2015, 05:51 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I have heard this way too often and it is just wrong. If Pentax put a full frame sensor in a K3 body without any changes, you would have a disaster. Designing a full frame camera requires a new mirror box and a new SR module and a new auto focus module, minimum. And if Pentax released a full frame camera with any of the typical features folks have come to expect on a full frame camera lacking, it would be universally panned in reviews. Pentax is selling in the current marketplace and in a situation where people have the opportunity to buy a D810 or a A7r II or a D750, Pentax has to have camera that matches up well against those cameras.

From what I have seen, I think they will be successful, but I will admit I am optimistic. At the same time, I do not see Pentax's APS-C offerings giving up a lot to Canon/Nikon/Sony at this point, except when it comes to video performance. Each of their APS-C cameras seems reasonably priced and with specifications that match well against the competition. So, while Pentax may be farther and farther behind, you can't see it in lower levels of camera bodies.
I'm sure you are right but I don't see the body as the challenge. It's so clear the camera body has to be up with the competition that if Ricoh produce one that isn't then they will have completely blown it. This is highly unlikely. Much more important are lenses, flash and autofocus performance, and perhaps also workflow (really sorted integration with Adobe, Capture One et al, with good lens and colour profiles to choose from, etc). Without those three, you don't have a system to offer to more than a few wealthy amateurs who perhaps already have a shelf of legacy glass. And you certainly aren't giving a professional user any reason to buy your products. My feeling is that looking too closely at the camera body is looking at the wrong thing. Ricoh could always look at reworking their jpeg engine, too. Really good jpegs give an edge to smaller outfits like Fuji and Olympus, so there's no reason Ricoh couldn't join them too. For an awful lot of people, even on FF, a seriously first-class jpeg engine is likely to be a lot more useful than something like pixel-shift which seems more about bragging rights than practical application.

The new Sony pocket rocket sounds amazing but I have absolutely no use for something like that even if I could afford one. No doubt quite a few wealthy people will buy one, but there is an element of "We're doing it just because we can, not because it's a great idea" - i.e., gadgetry - about the whole thing.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-16-2015 at 06:44 AM.
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