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10-16-2015, 08:02 AM   #16
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
They don't stand a chance in hell of beating Leica.
leica pq is a joke, the m240 has a dxo score of 84; k3ii has an 80 score, a7 is a 90.

leica can't even do medium format right, the leica s has 76 score

"Compared with the best-in-class models with 35mm full-frame CMOS sensors, the Leica CCD sensor looks a little beleaguered, and it’s all due to their exceptional low-light sensitivity and wider dynamic range. Both the Sony A7R and Nikon D800E have only marginally better color sensitivity at base ISO but the two models (with their Sony sourced 36-Mpix CMOS) have around a maximum +2 Ev wider dynamic range at base ISO and just over +1 2/3rds stop advantage in low–light sensitivity."
Leica S vs Sony A7R vs Nikon D800E: Lags behind in DR and high ISO sensitivity - DxOMark

who would want that leica junk over a 645z? please.

10-16-2015, 08:15 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
leica pq is a joke, the m240 has a dxo score of 84; k3ii has an 80 score, a7 is a 90. leica can't even do medium format right, the leica s has 76 score
DXO employ questionable testing methods in the analysis of camera sensors, there are instances where two cameras from different manufacturers with identical sensors got different marks!


QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
who would want that leica junk over a 645z?
Both of us know that you are dismissively calling Leica cameras junk because you can't afford them. You have never worked with an M rangefinder, or an S2. You haven't had the pleasure of working with the superlative Leica lenses, and it shows.



Also, I own 645Z - and it is an excellent camera for what it is, the Pentax D-FA ,DA and some of the older A and FA lenses offer decent performance on it. But when I need to work outdoors with flash, the high sync speeds the Leica leaf shutter lenses offer a superior solution to relying on HSS. The image quality from the Leica lenses on the S2 offer IQ that is pretty much as good as it gets. The Leica 180mm f/3.4 APO-Elmarit-S is the ultimate portraiture lens.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-16-2015 at 08:45 AM.
10-16-2015, 10:15 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
DXO employ questionable testing methods in the analysis of camera sensors, there are instances where two cameras from different manufacturers with identical sensors got different marks!
agreed to some extent, i do question the way the dxo manipulates crop sensor test results in particular... but you can't get away from the fact that the medium format leica uses an obsolete ccd sensor, and the pq reflects that... the m240 is 24mp? we are living in a 36-50mp world.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Both of us know that you are dismissively calling Leica cameras junk because you can't afford them.
no, everything that i posted was wrt factual picture quality data, period... leica cameras are not junk, just obsolete.

i don't give a rats ass how leica camera bodies handle, because all leica camera bodies use low-rez obsolete sensors, the pq is therefore inferior.

people put 180mm leica lenses on sony mirrorless cameras all the time, stop pretending that leica lenses are exclusive to leica camera bodies.

a7II IBIS with the 180mm Apo-Telyt-R | The Last Word

yes, i do wish that i could afford to put that glass on my a7r!
10-16-2015, 07:14 PM   #19
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Seriously if you're going to argue with me over Leica: get your facts straight!

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
but you can't get away from the fact that the medium format leica uses an obsolete ccd sensor, and the pq reflects that... the m240 is 24mp?
If you recall the Nikon D750 uses a 24mp full format sensor, the Leica M240 uses a similar 24Mp CMOS sensor. The Updated Leica S2 typ 007 will use a 37.5Mp CMOS sensor. However Leica will also continue producing the S2 with the 37.5Mp CCD for those who prefer the enhanced colour fidelity from a CCD.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
...leica cameras are not junk, just obsolete
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
who would want that leica junk...
you were saying?

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
people put 180mm leica lenses on sony mirrorless cameras all the time
But you won't see anyone putting a Sony lens on a Leica body. Because Sony lenses aren't anywhere near as good as Leica lenses.


Last edited by Digitalis; 10-16-2015 at 07:27 PM.
10-16-2015, 07:35 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
But you won't see anyone putting a Sony lens on a Leica body.
...because leica bodies all have obsolete low-resolution sensors, as you well know

besides, why would anyone want to compromise the two highest-ranked lenses on dxo with a low-rez leica camera body? it makes no sense.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
They don't stand a chance in hell of beating Leica.
you were saying?
10-17-2015, 02:35 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
...because leica bodies all have obsolete low-resolution sensors, as you well know
You realise that not everyone wants or needs high-res sensors? Of course, this is completely ignoring the fact that in the 'real world' (the one where photos happen, as oppose to DxO world), 24mp is already ridiculously high-res...
10-17-2015, 03:00 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
because leica bodies all have obsolete low-resolution sensors, as you well know
If we follow your argument the Pentax K3II is low resolution. Though what makes this worse is the fact that 24Mp isn't on a 24X36mm sensor, which the Leica M bodies have - and pentax bodies do not.

10-17-2015, 09:06 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
You realise that not everyone wants or needs high-res sensors?
you realize that some people are happy taking pics with smartphones?

what was the point of your post.

---------- Post added 10-17-15 at 09:35 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
If we follow your argument the Pentax K3II is low resolution.
the 24mp k3ii isn't quite obsolete yet, because afaik, the highest mp crop sensor on the market is only 28mp.

24mp ff sensors are obsolete, because of the 36mp 42mp and 50mp ff cameras... a much bigger mp difference.

for those who don't see the purpose of the rx1rii, it appears to be competing directly with the 24mp leica q, at $4250?? Leica Q (Typ 116) Digital Camera 19000 B&H Photo Video
10-17-2015, 03:22 PM   #24
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Not intending to reply to any post in particular, and certainly don't want to enter into a debate (especially since some of the posters in this thread are in my ignore list), however ...

I remember a discussion some time ago about what is the equivalent number of "pixels" that 35mm film has compared to a digital camera. At what resolution would one comfortably say they are surpassing the equivalent of carrying a film camera and taking photos under optimal conditions?

Apparently the amount of detail in 35mm film is approximately equivalent to about 4-5 megapixels taking the entire processing chain into account (I can't remember the source, but it's may be Kodak). Under ideal conditions, maybe 12 megapixels.

So a smartphone already gives more resolution than 35mm film. And a Leica body is more than adequate.

However, if we consider a Bayer sensor has lower colour resolution due to the need to have pixels that respond to different colours, then perhaps one should require a digital sensor to have a resolution of 3-4 times of the "5MP" arbitrary figure to compensate for the loss of colour detail. So that would mean 20MP. The Leica is still okay.

But let's say we go for the extreme and multiply 12MP by 4 to take into account the Bayer sensor - it's 48MP.

This explains why 50MP is probably a good goal to reach for a digital full frame camera, because at that point you can truly say you have a camera that surpasses film under all possible conditions.

Going back to the subject of the thread, the new RX1RII comes close at 42MP, so I would assert that the primary appeal of this camera is a no-compromise camera for street photographers and others who like to see the world from just one lens perspective. There is an innate logic in this that I appreciate - I often go out with just one lens (usually 35mm or 50mm) because there is a certain discipline and technique required that produces interesting and sometimes unexpected results.

Anyway, please continue. I'll just go back to shooting on my smartphone.
10-17-2015, 07:14 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you realize that some people are happy taking pics with smartphones?

what was the point of your post.
Of course some people are happy taking pics with smartphones. What was the point of your post?
10-17-2015, 10:08 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Apparently the amount of detail in 35mm film is approximately equivalent to about 4-5 megapixels taking the entire processing chain into account (I can't remember the source, but it's may be Kodak). Under ideal conditions, maybe 12 megapixels.
I thought I remembered reading someplace that film was capable of producing a resolution about equal to 35MP. But when I went to look for the source I see a lot of different opinions and methods of calculating this. The majority seem to end up with 20-25MP being the equivalent to reasonable film with some really high quality black and white stocks being a bit higher. But anyway, your 20MP is right in the ballpark and 42MP should satisfy anyone looking to compare to 35mm film.
10-17-2015, 11:57 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
24mp ff sensors are obsolete,
..really?

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
he 24mp k3ii isn't quite obsolete yet
...really, not yet? just because it is APS-C format?

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
it appears to be competing directly with the 24mp leica q
I can see that, though the two cameras feature very different lenses: a 35mm f/2 Sonnar Vs 28mm f/1.7 Summilux ASPH. AFAIK neither offer image stabilization, so the advantage goes to the Leica by having a slightly wider and faster lens. Though to be honest the difference between f/2 and f/1.7 is rather trivial, the difference between 28mm and 35 is not. The advantage of the lower Mp on the Leica Q gives it twice the capture rate of the Sony camera. The Sony camera also uses a proprietary RAW format, the Leica Q natively supports DNG format which in my eyes, gives it clear superiority over the Sony product.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-18-2015 at 12:31 AM.
10-18-2015, 02:25 AM   #28
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Resolution isn't everything. Quality has something to say too, and I respect the quality of Leica gear. I certainly wouldn't say that Sony is necessarily chasing after Leica. Let's not ignore that some (and to be clear I'm not referring to anyone in this thread) are badge snobs with high disposable income. They wouldn't go with a Sony - hell they wouldn't go with a Panasonic LX what ever instead going for a camera with a Leica badge that is identical to the Lumix that is priced massively higher. Yes, Leica does stand for quality some of the time, but these bastardised Lumix's demonstrate that their heart isn't always in the right place. It's like Aston Martin rebadging a Toyota...wait, they've done that too...

So no, a Leica shooter isn't necessarily going to reach for this. A badge hunter won't, one or two real Leica shooters may take an interest, but few will buy. I am a bit confused why Leica didn't up the resolution on the S. I also wouldn't read too much into DxO scores. As for Canon, on mirrorless although they have rejoined the race, and have just announced another M body, it still feels half-hearted. As such, I don't see Canon ever competing with Sony on mirrorless, but do they need to? Perhaps that's the reason they have been so lukewarm.

I think there is definitely a market for this camera. And the lens will be a very good one, likely a version of the Distagon 35 f/2, which I have always found to be very strong, and have had a version of for the last 6 years. Yes they could always licence the Zeiss name for the camera, but I doubt they would necessarily get the kudos that goes along with it, much like the 'Hasselblad' E mounts.
10-18-2015, 03:49 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I know they don't have the balls to do it, but GR FF I will literally cry for.
Not yet....but it is inevitable that it will happen if the GR line continues to exist. But, when you really want something, years from now translates to never. :-)
10-18-2015, 06:27 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
Let's not ignore that some (and to be clear I'm not referring to anyone in this thread) are badge snobs with high disposable income
That's fine, accuse a brand of elitism and ignore the people who work hard, spend their money on acquiring their products, and genuinely appreciate the craftsmanship and quality. Do you know what users from other brands think of pentax users?

QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
And the lens will be a very good one, likely a version of the Distagon 35 f/2
The DSC-RX1R II 35mm f/2 lens is a Sonnar, not a Distagon. Distagon designs have different optical design goals from a Sonnar, which are different from a Planar design.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-18-2015 at 06:40 AM.
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