Sony camera sales plunge

**clackers** · 12-05-2015, 02:31 AM

Hurts our hobby when any maker has trouble, IMHO (eg Samsung).

Demand for Sony cameras slides 27%

**Digitalis** · 12-05-2015, 02:40 AM

In an oversaturated market this is isn't a surprise, it is an inevitability.

**clackers** · 12-05-2015, 02:43 AM

Yep, note Canon hit for 24% too. But the picture that the old guard (Canikon) lose money while the new players, the electronics firms (Sony/Samsung) make it is false.

**Rondec** · 12-05-2015, 03:44 AM

I think mirrorless cameras are getting to the same place now that SLRs were at three or four years ago. That is to say they are good enough that people don't feel the need to upgrade every cycle. The market as a whole is contracting and if companies aren't flexible enough to deal with it, they will end up over supplying the market. That can be a good thing from a consumer standpoint, as it leads to deep discounts to get rid of old stock, but it is not so good for profits from the camera company's stand point.

Na Horuk · 12-05-2015, 04:29 AM - **2 Likes**

Yeah, I don't know what they were expecting. How many cameras has Sony released in the past 5 years? This isn't a sign that photography is dieing, just that companies produce and expect to sell way too many cameras. Often these have nearly negligible differences between models, tiers, generations - at least to the average camera owner.
I hope the cycles will slow down and the changes will be more substantial from generation to generation in the future. And that the change won't be just "more MP!!"

**Digitalis** · 12-05-2015, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

The market as a whole is contracting and if companies aren't flexible enough to deal with it, they will end up over supplying the market.

I'd say that is already happening. Companies are trying to come out with the "new hot item" where there will be guaranteed sales, but the market is already fatigued by all the bells and whistles that they just tune out. And the result of which is an overabundance of product, and no market.

**Rondec** · 12-05-2015, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

I'd say that is already happening. Companies are trying to come out with the "new hot item" where there will be guaranteed sales, but the market is already fatigued by all the bells and whistles that they just tune out. And the result of which is an overabundance of product, and no market.

True.

In the old days, companies had 12 month cycles because there really were updated sensors and auto focus modules. Now, the updates feel pretty tired and the difference between, say, a D5200 and a D5300 feels amazingly small. Yet, Nikon continues to push out a new camera on the same time cycle because that's what they do.

It would be a lot better to wait till you really have something new to offer and then release a new camera at that point. At this point, Nikon ends up selling their gear against the last couple of generations of cameras and the consumers can't really tell the difference between them -- particularly not if they have the same number of megapixels.

mecrox · 12-05-2015, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by clackers

Hurts our hobby when any maker has trouble, IMHO (eg Samsung).

Demand for Sony cameras slides 27%

Quite agree, though within the figures from various makers it appears that the high-end is not doing too badly (or less badly anyway than the lower tiers) which should bump up the average value of each item sold. This must help to improve their overall income a bit. Nikon recently claimed that the D750 and D7200 were exceeding sales forecasts. Still, if everyone moves upmarket then the same logjam will soon occur, too many items chasing not enough buyers whether it's mirrorless or DSLR.

beholder3 · 12-05-2015, 05:00 AM

The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones.
So they withdrew from the lost battle over the normal photographer and did what you do when you are in your first term in business school and lack any understanding: concentrate on the few rich customers (guess who that is).
Now they begin to feel how smart it is if everybody targets the same few attractive buyers with products which have not seen a gamechanger from inside in nearly ten years (the single gamechanger was from the smartphone industry) but only me-too products with minimal upgrades. They are just too slow and lame.

**Digitalis** · 12-05-2015, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones(sic).

Really? most users want easy take-anywhere convenience the inherent IQ in larger sensors is not amenable to the form factor of smartphones, with a 44mmX33mm sensor on a phone with a built in lens that is supposed to be able to be fitted in your pocket..it simply cannot be done.

osv · 12-05-2015, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones.

yes, all camera companies got killed by smartphones, but the cheaper p&s camera segment took it on the chin far worse, and that's why sony is reporting lower overall unit sales.

those overall numbers aren't about high-end cameras at all, which in the case of sony fe-mount, are a raging success.

Originally posted by beholder3

So they withdrew from the lost battle over the normal photographer and did what you do when you are in your first term in business school and lack any understanding: concentrate on the few rich customers (guess who that is).
Now they begin to feel how smart it is if everybody targets the same few attractive buyers with products which have not seen a gamechanger from inside in nearly ten years (the single gamechanger was from the smartphone industry) but only me-too products with minimal upgrades. They are just too slow and lame.

that's certain true with canikon, and how long have people been waiting for pentax ff? but it's not the case with sony, they've released a bunch of innovative fe-mount camera bodies in the last two years... the a7rii in particular is technically far more sophisticated than any other ff camera on the market today... it's a game-changer that has been stealing dslr customers from canikon.

from dpr:

"Sony has released its Q2 2015 financial results, posting a 3% decline year-on-year in imaging product sales on a constant currency basis. However, demand for high-value added models, favorable exchange rates and internal cost reductions led to a bump in that group's operating income - up to ¥25.9bn ($216m) compared to 20.1bn this time last year. Overall, the company has posted an ¥88bn operating income at the end of its second quarter.

Looking ahead, Sony has cut its forecast for the imaging division's financial year. It predicts ¥720bn in sales, a ¥10bn reduction of the forecast made in July, but pins the blame on the impact of changing foreign exchange rates for the decrease. The company has actually increased its unit sales prediction for the year, but believes changes in exchange rate will offset some of the value in those sales. Sony has also raised the segment's operating income forecast, counting on the continued shift toward higher value models to push profitability upward."

rawr · 12-05-2015, 04:20 PM

Speaking of smart-phones, 2015 shows what's going down. Poor Sony mirrorless:

flickr, of course, has been infested

with smart-phones for a long time.

**clackers** · 12-05-2015, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by osv

those overall numbers aren't about high-end cameras at all, which in the case of sony fe-mount, are a raging success.

If you're to be of any use, give actual sales numbers, instead of bloggers' hype, please.

Cameras have just been moved out of the successful imaging sensor division by Sony, they must now arrest their decline, or else ...

osv · 12-05-2015, 07:23 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by rawr

Speaking of smart-phones, 2015 shows what's going down. Poor Sony mirrorless:

sony+samsung have more models of cameras uploading to flickr than canikon+pentax

https://www.flickr.com/cameras/?s=models#brands

cipa stats:
mirrorless shipments are up for october, compared to a year ago, and the price per unit is way up.
dslr shipments are down for october, compared to a year ago, and the price per unit is down:

pcs shipped mirrorless: 108.3%
pcs shipped dslr: 85.2%

1000yen mirrorless: 120.7
1000yen dslr: 83.2

that doesn't include samsung mirrorless numbers... mirrorless sales are increasing, despite the overall digital camera numbers decreasing: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201510_e.pdf

"Nikkei Asian Review published this interesting chart showing which companies dominated the interchangeable-lens camera sales in 2014. Canon had 43.3%, Nikon had 32.1%, Sony had 13%, and other companies accounted for a combined 11.6%. From a year earlier, Nikon lost 2.5% share to Sony and other smaller companies, while Canon basically held steady.

The article is an interesting look at how Sony was able to breathe new life into its brand and prospects, essentially saving its camera business, with the introduction of the Alpha 7 line of high-end mirrorless cameras." http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Sony-bets-on-mirrorless-cameras-for-revival?page=1

quote from the article: "In the two years through October, Sony's share of the full-frame camera market is estimated to have surged by about 400% in Germany and about 600% in the U.S."

reeftool · 12-06-2015, 06:41 AM - **1 Like**

I don't think that smartphones have hurt DSLR's much although it's killed the P&S market. DSLR technology has matured. There is absolutely no reason to rush out and upgrade to the newest camera body from anybody. I'm still content with my K5 and will likely keep using it until it fails. There was a big jump in image quality in digital sensors from 2006-2010 and upgrading made a lot of sense. Plus, there were a lot of photographers still migrating from film.

The remaining players in the camera industry are simply going to have to accept the fact that their users are going to be keeping their cameras 5 years or so and really go back to advertising high end cameras (not just DSLR's) as tools to get you to the next level. They have hyped the DSLR to the masses as the ultimate family camera. People bought them with no knowledge of exposure, depth of field, etc and their photos mostly sucked. They are not going to be repeat customers. Back in the film days, it was pretty much understood that an SLR was a professional tool with a learning curve. Even with all the new automatic technology, it's still true.

12-05-2015, 02:31 AM	#1
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Sony camera sales plunge Hurts our hobby when any maker has trouble, IMHO (eg Samsung). Demand for Sony cameras slides 27%

12-05-2015, 07:23 PM - 1 Like	#14
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by rawr Speaking of smart-phones, 2015 shows what's going down. Poor Sony mirrorless: sony+samsung have more models of cameras uploading to flickr than canikon+pentax https://www.flickr.com/cameras/?s=models#brands cipa stats: mirrorless shipments are up for october, compared to a year ago, and the price per unit is way up. dslr shipments are down for october, compared to a year ago, and the price per unit is down: pcs shipped mirrorless: 108.3% pcs shipped dslr: 85.2% 1000yen mirrorless: 120.7 1000yen dslr: 83.2 that doesn't include samsung mirrorless numbers... mirrorless sales are increasing, despite the overall digital camera numbers decreasing: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201510_e.pdf "Nikkei Asian Review published this interesting chart showing which companies dominated the interchangeable-lens camera sales in 2014. Canon had 43.3%, Nikon had 32.1%, Sony had 13%, and other companies accounted for a combined 11.6%. From a year earlier, Nikon lost 2.5% share to Sony and other smaller companies, while Canon basically held steady. The article is an interesting look at how Sony was able to breathe new life into its brand and prospects, essentially saving its camera business, with the introduction of the Alpha 7 line of high-end mirrorless cameras." http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Sony-bets-on-mirrorless-cameras-for-revival?page=1 quote from the article: "In the two years through October, Sony's share of the full-frame camera market is estimated to have surged by about 400% in Germany and about 600% in the U.S." Last edited by osv; 12-05-2015 at 07:40 PM.

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12-05-2015, 02:40 AM	#2
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	In an oversaturated market this is isn't a surprise, it is an inevitability.

12-05-2015, 02:43 AM	#3
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397 Original Poster	Yep, note Canon hit for 24% too. But the picture that the old guard (Canikon) lose money while the new players, the electronics firms (Sony/Samsung) make it is false.

12-05-2015, 03:44 AM	#4
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	I think mirrorless cameras are getting to the same place now that SLRs were at three or four years ago. That is to say they are good enough that people don't feel the need to upgrade every cycle. The market as a whole is contracting and if companies aren't flexible enough to deal with it, they will end up over supplying the market. That can be a good thing from a consumer standpoint, as it leads to deep discounts to get rid of old stock, but it is not so good for profits from the camera company's stand point.

12-05-2015, 04:29 AM - 2 Likes	#5
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Yeah, I don't know what they were expecting. How many cameras has Sony released in the past 5 years? This isn't a sign that photography is dieing, just that companies produce and expect to sell way too many cameras. Often these have nearly negligible differences between models, tiers, generations - at least to the average camera owner. I hope the cycles will slow down and the changes will be more substantial from generation to generation in the future. And that the change won't be just "more MP!!"

12-05-2015, 04:45 AM	#6
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Rondec The market as a whole is contracting and if companies aren't flexible enough to deal with it, they will end up over supplying the market. I'd say that is already happening. Companies are trying to come out with the "new hot item" where there will be guaranteed sales, but the market is already fatigued by all the bells and whistles that they just tune out. And the result of which is an overabundance of product, and no market.

12-05-2015, 04:53 AM	#7
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by Digitalis I'd say that is already happening. Companies are trying to come out with the "new hot item" where there will be guaranteed sales, but the market is already fatigued by all the bells and whistles that they just tune out. And the result of which is an overabundance of product, and no market. True. In the old days, companies had 12 month cycles because there really were updated sensors and auto focus modules. Now, the updates feel pretty tired and the difference between, say, a D5200 and a D5300 feels amazingly small. Yet, Nikon continues to push out a new camera on the same time cycle because that's what they do. It would be a lot better to wait till you really have something new to offer and then release a new camera at that point. At this point, Nikon ends up selling their gear against the last couple of generations of cameras and the consumers can't really tell the difference between them -- particularly not if they have the same number of megapixels.

12-05-2015, 04:53 AM	#8
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by clackers Hurts our hobby when any maker has trouble, IMHO (eg Samsung). Demand for Sony cameras slides 27% Quite agree, though within the figures from various makers it appears that the high-end is not doing too badly (or less badly anyway than the lower tiers) which should bump up the average value of each item sold. This must help to improve their overall income a bit. Nikon recently claimed that the D750 and D7200 were exceeding sales forecasts. Still, if everyone moves upmarket then the same logjam will soon occur, too many items chasing not enough buyers whether it's mirrorless or DSLR.

12-05-2015, 05:00 AM	#9
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones. So they withdrew from the lost battle over the normal photographer and did what you do when you are in your first term in business school and lack any understanding: concentrate on the few rich customers (guess who that is). Now they begin to feel how smart it is if everybody targets the same few attractive buyers with products which have not seen a gamechanger from inside in nearly ten years (the single gamechanger was from the smartphone industry) but only me-too products with minimal upgrades. They are just too slow and lame.

12-05-2015, 05:25 AM	#10
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by beholder3 The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones(sic). Really? most users want easy take-anywhere convenience the inherent IQ in larger sensors is not amenable to the form factor of smartphones, with a 44mmX33mm sensor on a phone with a built in lens that is supposed to be able to be fitted in your pocket..it simply cannot be done.

12-05-2015, 08:16 AM	#11
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by beholder3 The Sonys, Nikon, Canons, Pentaxs, Fujis and others of thr world miserably failed against the future trend in photography which is smarthpones. yes, all camera companies got killed by smartphones, but the cheaper p&s camera segment took it on the chin far worse, and that's why sony is reporting lower overall unit sales. those overall numbers aren't about high-end cameras at all, which in the case of sony fe-mount, are a raging success. Originally posted by beholder3 So they withdrew from the lost battle over the normal photographer and did what you do when you are in your first term in business school and lack any understanding: concentrate on the few rich customers (guess who that is). Now they begin to feel how smart it is if everybody targets the same few attractive buyers with products which have not seen a gamechanger from inside in nearly ten years (the single gamechanger was from the smartphone industry) but only me-too products with minimal upgrades. They are just too slow and lame. that's certain true with canikon, and how long have people been waiting for pentax ff? but it's not the case with sony, they've released a bunch of innovative fe-mount camera bodies in the last two years... the a7rii in particular is technically far more sophisticated than any other ff camera on the market today... it's a game-changer that has been stealing dslr customers from canikon. from dpr: "Sony has released its Q2 2015 financial results, posting a 3% decline year-on-year in imaging product sales on a constant currency basis. However, demand for high-value added models, favorable exchange rates and internal cost reductions led to a bump in that group's operating income - up to ¥25.9bn ($216m) compared to 20.1bn this time last year. Overall, the company has posted an ¥88bn operating income at the end of its second quarter. Looking ahead, Sony has cut its forecast for the imaging division's financial year. It predicts ¥720bn in sales, a ¥10bn reduction of the forecast made in July, but pins the blame on the impact of changing foreign exchange rates for the decrease. The company has actually increased its unit sales prediction for the year, but believes changes in exchange rate will offset some of the value in those sales. Sony has also raised the segment's operating income forecast, counting on the continued shift toward higher value models to push profitability upward."

12-05-2015, 04:20 PM	#12
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Speaking of smart-phones, 2015 shows what's going down. Poor Sony mirrorless: flickr, of course, has been infested with smart-phones for a long time.

12-05-2015, 05:23 PM	#13
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397 Original Poster	Originally posted by osv those overall numbers aren't about high-end cameras at all, which in the case of sony fe-mount, are a raging success. If you're to be of any use, give actual sales numbers, instead of bloggers' hype, please. Cameras have just been moved out of the successful imaging sensor division by Sony, they must now arrest their decline, or else ...

12-06-2015, 06:41 AM - 1 Like	#15
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,555	I don't think that smartphones have hurt DSLR's much although it's killed the P&S market. DSLR technology has matured. There is absolutely no reason to rush out and upgrade to the newest camera body from anybody. I'm still content with my K5 and will likely keep using it until it fails. There was a big jump in image quality in digital sensors from 2006-2010 and upgrading made a lot of sense. Plus, there were a lot of photographers still migrating from film. The remaining players in the camera industry are simply going to have to accept the fact that their users are going to be keeping their cameras 5 years or so and really go back to advertising high end cameras (not just DSLR's) as tools to get you to the next level. They have hyped the DSLR to the masses as the ultimate family camera. People bought them with no knowledge of exposure, depth of field, etc and their photos mostly sucked. They are not going to be repeat customers. Back in the film days, it was pretty much understood that an SLR was a professional tool with a learning curve. Even with all the new automatic technology, it's still true.