[interested_observer]

• Sony sensor,
• full 645 frame,
• 100MP
• 16 bit
• 15 stops of dynamic range

• https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx

[Na Horuk]

Full 645? But Pentax 645D & Z are smaller. Pentax is dooooomed

Seriously, though. That Phase One looks a lot boxier than the K-01 did.. interesting specifications. We will see Pentax' reply when it comes time to replace 645Z, which probably won't be very soon

[aurele]

maybe the next Pentax 645 will have this sensor ? Well, in few years.

[RonHendriks1966]

I do wonder if this sensor if exclusive for PhaseOne or more will come with it. If Pentax can use this, then having a second model next to 645Z is smart. If it's for PhaseOne exclusive then Hasselblad can close their doors.

[interested_observer]

I do wonder if this sensor if exclusive for PhaseOne or more will come with it. If Pentax can use this, then having a second model next to 645Z is smart. If it's for PhaseOne exclusive then Hasselblad can close their doors.

Since Sony is spinning / has spun off their sensor business area into an independent company, I am going to think that it might possibly be available to anyone/everyone. I doubt that PhaseOne has the financial capability or the volume to support a full sensor design of their own (with Sony just acting as a FAB) - but you really never know for sure. I don't see Sony providing their sensor technology for a private propriety sensor to just a single body manufacturer. Sony did not even do that for themselves (just a 6 month market lead).

I was thinking that this would be a wonderful next step for the follow-on to the Z. Full 645 frame, 16 bit imagery (but that would be dependent on the Pentax side for the ADC and the imagery processing pipeline), and 100MP - although that would push the older 645 glass. Also, it would push the image processing engine in terms of overall thru-put, 16 bit imagery would be a nice feature for the new full frame system.

___________

I'll just add that in terms of platform volume, and this is just a guess, Pentax probably has the volume lead here - considering their price relative to everyone else, and their comments in terms of surprise that the Z has overwhelmed their expectations and their ability to produce the body. Just look at the folks posting images in the medium format area. The price is high, but to me having this many folks out shooting the 645 either D or Z is astounding. That coupled with the price of the D coming down to some affordable prices (well used) - that creates a wonderful secondary market for the folks who have purchased new that want to upgrade to anything new.

[RonHendriks1966]

I guess that cross-using technology and parts on Pentax site would mean, all internals from K-1. So expect 14-bit RAW and even that would bring a lot of data.

[Nicolas06]

Since Sony is spinning / has spun off their sensor business area into an independent company, I am going to think that it might possibly be available to anyone/everyone. I doubt that PhaseOne has the financial capability or the volume to support a full sensor design of their own (with Sony just acting as a FAB) - but you really never know for sure. I don't see Sony providing their sensor technology for a private propriety sensor to just a single body manufacturer. Sony did not even do that for themselves (just a 6 month market lead).

I was thinking that this would be a wonderful next step for the follow-on to the Z. Full 645 frame, 16 bit imagery (but that would be dependent on the Pentax side for the ADC and the imagery processing pipeline), and 100MP - although that would push the older 645 glass. Also, it would push the image processing engine in terms of overall thru-put, 16 bit imagery would be a nice feature for the new full frame system.

___________

I'll just add that in terms of platform volume, and this is just a guess, Pentax probably has the volume lead here - considering their price relative to everyone else, and their comments in terms of surprise that the Z has overwhelmed their expectations and their ability to produce the body. Just look at the folks posting images in the medium format area. The price is high, but to me having this many folks out shooting the 645 either D or Z is astounding. That coupled with the price of the D coming down to some affordable prices (well used) - that creates a wonderful secondary market for the folks who have purchased new that want to upgrade to anything new.

I think Sony can make any sensor they want, they have the technology. There will be limitation like transfert rate or the % of success that will drive price... And of course the price to make the dedicated blueprint for the waffers.

That being said, phaseone can have designed some part of the sensor or paid Sony to do so and asked for exclusivity of this design (or brought the intellectual property). Sony could have accepted thinking that anyway there no many clients (if at all) for that format and that they can always design something different if needed.

But it would not stop anybody else to do exactly the same with Sony (or somebody else) and ome up with a sigtly different (or completely different) result.

[Nicolas06]

As for Pentax, I don't know.

For very expensive phase one it make sense even if each sensor is costing them 10 time the price of a crop sensor MF that Pentax has in a 645Z, they can afford it because their market is to provide the best. Basically either they managed to do that or they go bankrupt.

Pentax will have to check if they can sell an FF 645 for a price that would get their clients interrested.

All in all, there as much difference between 645 and FF that there is between 35mm and m4/3. That's rougly 2EV. Cropped MF was "limited" and in a sense still in a similar league as FF. With an FF MF the sensor size is really different than 35mm and even if it is very expensive, that clearly a differentiator.

[Na Horuk]

If Pentax can use this, then having a second model next to 645Z is smart.

Yea, 645Z as the "affordable entry level" medium format DSLR, and then a 645FF as the expensive flagship. That would be an interesting lineup.
But I think Pentax should go beyond 14 bit soon

[RonHendriks1966]

Yea, 645Z as the "affordable entry level" medium format DSLR, and then a 645FF as the expensive flagship. That would be an interesting lineup.
But I think Pentax should go beyond 14 bit soon

If the K-1 is 14-bit then don't expect more for a 645FF. The Design cost, firmware development and new electronic lay-out for this is to expensive for the rather small production.

How much more would the sensor be? A plus of $ 10.000 maybe? So this camera would be at least 25.000 $. Using everything that is inside K-1 (except SR).

[RobA_Oz]

Interesting, but these will be sold in the hundreds, not the thousands. I couldn't find a price for the basic body, and I imagine it will be many times that of the 645Z, but they are rather different. The replaceable back is interesting, but of course it cuts down on your future sales, as well as the size of the future secondhand market. Still, grafting the same sensor and a replaceable viewfinder onto the 645Z would go a long way to undercutting the logic behind the Phase One system.

[Nicolas06]

If the K-1 is 14-bit then don't expect more for a 645FF. The Design cost, firmware development and new electronic lay-out for this is to expensive for the rather small production.

How much more would the sensor be? A plus of $ 10.000 maybe? So this camera would be at least 25.000 $. Using everything that is inside K-1 (except SR).

Man there already 12 bit from K30/K50 and 14 bits for K5/K3. Anyway the number of bits is just a parameter of the processing software. For the sensor itself, well if Sony provide it and made it for phaseone there can buy it and send the data on the bus of the sensor. Job done.

You know 16bits is a power of 2 and also the size of 2 bytes. This is a very strong standard in computer science and while 12 or 14 bit processing was needing very specialized hardware or was just converted internally to 16 or 32 bits for processing, this isn't necessary for 16 bits. 16 bit per pixel is very common and supported by a large range of standard CPU and graphic cards. As a file format this is not new. 16 bit tiff has been here for years as well as raws with 16 bit too. DNG support it.

So really no issue.

[lytrytyr]

16 bit per pixel is very common and supported by a large range of standard CPU and graphic cards. As a file format this is not new. 16 bit tiff has been here for years as well as raws with 16 bit too. DNG support it. So really no issue.

But: 'With the XF 100MP Camera System, we are introducing a new file format custom built for the 100MP CMOS sensor, the “IIQ L 16bit”.'

[RonHendriks1966]

Man there already 12 bit from K30/K50 and 14 bits for K5/K3.

So really no issue.

Those two are the current formats Pentax works with. PRIME M is a 12-bit processing system, so there is also some hardware involved. If it is no issue and doesn't cost money, we will see 16-bit.

[RobA_Oz]

But: 'With the XF 100MP Camera System, we are introducing a new file format custom built for the 100MP CMOS sensor, the “IIQ L 16bit”.'

"New", like 35FF format is "new" to Pentax? Or maybe just new to their marketing people? Or is it really a new twist on previous file formats (unlike Sony's compressed RAW format, one hopes)? Much of this is of academic interest to most of us, here, I suspect.