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02-11-2016, 12:54 AM   #61
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Drop $2000 on a lens and suddenly i'll start taking beautiful, compelling, powerful images that I never could before with my cheapo 350 buck Sigma super zoom.
Humbug.

02-11-2016, 01:36 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
I just want Sony to make mounts that can be used forever.
The FE mount has already been thru 4 generations (depending on how one counts them) of FF digital cameras. The K mount will have its first FF digital DSLR issued this year. The more modern Canon mount lenses have already been electronically adapted to the FE mount. Preliminary work has already been accomplished to adapt Nikon lenses to the FE mount.

One could credibly debate that the FE mount will survive longer than the K mount. Not that it matters. 15 years from now, all existing lens mounts will likely be in museums and collections.
02-11-2016, 01:41 AM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
One could credibly debate that the FE mount will survive longer than the K mount.
It won't. Mark my words.
02-11-2016, 02:50 AM - 3 Likes   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
One could credibly debate that the FE mount will survive longer than the K mount.
I'd like to believe that, but Sony is a successful mammoth of a company that is now always under pressure to deliver their stockholders' expectations, a victim of their wild successes in the past, and their sheer size. As such, their tireless pursuit for innovation has always been commendable, but again, this is also their biggest curse. They are quick to adopt (not adapt!) to a standard, but they can leave it as quickly if it does not deliver the growing stockholders (not stakeholders, which includes customers) expectations. They can open the valve and spend huge sum of money to prime it, but they can as quickly drop it like a hot potato.

Off the top of my head:

1. Betamax (vs JVC's VHS)
2. Digital Audio Tape (vs casette tapes)
3. Minidisc (vs Philip's Compact Discs)
4. ATRAC (vs MP3)
5. Memory Sticks (vs CF)
6. Universal Media Disc (vs digital distribution)

Among product lines they have surprisingly "dropped" recently after losing billions of dollars:
1. VAIO
2. Bravia

I can be 100% wrong, but as a photography hobbyist wearing my financial/market analyst' hat, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Sony.

02-11-2016, 03:45 AM - 1 Like   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The FE mount has already been thru 4 generations (depending on how one counts them) of FF digital cameras. The K mount will have its first FF digital DSLR issued this year. The more modern Canon mount lenses have already been electronically adapted to the FE mount. Preliminary work has already been accomplished to adapt Nikon lenses to the FE mount.

One could credibly debate that the FE mount will survive longer than the K mount. Not that it matters. 15 years from now, all existing lens mounts will likely be in museums and collections.
I think if you were to bet on it, you would do more based on each company's history and Pentax has a lot more conservative history when it comes to these things than does Sony. I would guess both would be around in 15 years, but 15 years is a long time in a business that seems to be declining overall. The question in my mind has more to do with what Sony is going to do down the line when their ability to innovate plateaus and their customers don't need to purchase a camera every couple of years.

The reality is that folks, like yourself, who purchased an A7r II are not going to be rushing out to buy another Sony camera for a little while. And because of the fact that the FE mount allows for a lot of different lenses to be used, I would bet that Sony actually sells fewer lenses than other brands, for similarly priced cameras. Mirrorless cameras have avoided much of the market decline SLRs have seen for awhile, but I think it is coming for them soon as well.
02-11-2016, 08:19 AM   #66
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These lenses use ground breaking technology. This tech will likely one day be used by Pentax and other Lens brands.
02-11-2016, 09:06 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
These lenses use ground breaking technology. This tech will likely one day be used by Pentax and other Lens brands.

To be fair, Sony has, had and (likely will always have) superior advantageS over competition, but as I have previously mentioned, in more recent times, these advantages didn't translate to anything tangible as far as the stockholders are concerned, and Sony had to inevitably drop the ball.

Again, Betamax was far more superior against VHS in almost every aspect (size, clarity, etc.), except for one thing, it couldn't handle anything more than an hour, and VHS could. We all know who won that war. In the end manufacturers, (Sanyo, Philips, Panasonic) went for the inferior technology of JVC.

The DAT vs analog cassette tapes. Sony was years, or perhaps at least a decade ahead of its time in this fight. Yet, I have yet to know somebody who have/had more than 10 DATs in a collection. (I used to have around 200 cassette tapes)

The Minidisc was so much better than Philip's CD. Lightining fast ROM, beautiful design, sturdier than CD, uses ATRACs. Again, history repeated itself. (I still have around 400 CDs.)

Now ATRAC, where do I begin? This was revolutionary in its time, superior compression leading to almost lossless quality, vs. what the crappy, lossy, cheap MP3? Sony bet that people would rather spend for the expensive Minidisc and ATRAC rather than suffer the horrible, revolting sound of MP3. Oooppps, it was a David vs. Goliath.

Memory sticks, yes, it's an entire family vs the USB (or CF/SD for camera) Memory sticks are again superior, and Sony was again hopeful that that would be the de facto standard in flash storage.

Ah, the UMD, I guess that was another miscalculation, though for a while digital downloading was slow, erratic, and supposedly could/would never compete against the UMD. Right! The UMD never stood a chance.

Now VAIO vs Macbook? Digitized walkman vs iPod? Sony's phones vs Samsung/Apple's? Sony's Bravia? PS3 vs Wii/Xbox?

The fight has now shifted from audio to gaming, and now imaging and video.

I will accede to the fact that historically Sony has always the superior technology, but in a string of bad lucks, or perhaps miscalculations, they may have forgotten that in the end consumers will not always go for the superior technology especially if they'll be asking an arm and a leg for it, sometimes people will accept a lossy, crappy MP3 if it means that it will better suit their needs and pockets.


Last edited by drypenn; 02-11-2016 at 09:16 AM.
02-11-2016, 09:23 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
I'd like to believe that, but Sony is a successful mammoth
Interesting choice of words there, since mammoths are all extinct. Once Sony used to be a marque of quality that showed the very best of what Japanese electronics had to offer - but now, they are hacking up their camera lines. Producing proprietary optics that to a large extent, ignore the compactness of the camera system they are designed for and lock users out of using them with their other products. Sony Has fallen far.
02-11-2016, 09:56 AM - 1 Like   #69
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I guess we'll see what happens, but I think Sony has actually done pretty well with their mirrorless. I would say it's about as big an industry shakeup as when Canon came out with the first 5D and it was mildly affordable to shoot full frame.

I know a lot of professional photographers in the editorial, photojournalism and commercial worlds who have switched over to Sony from either Canon or Nikon. Some folks on the NYT staff have switched over. The only area where it can't really keep up is with sports and even that is changing. I just did a commercial running shoot and mostly used the A7RII and 55 - and it kept up as well as my Nikon would have for all practical purposes, and it was really nice having the smaller camera do all of this so well.

No matter how sexy Fuji's cameras are they are just pretty well behind Sony in terms of what you can actually do with them. I know, I had them, and so did a lot of the same photographers I mentioned above, but all got rid of them because in the end usability and versatility were issues. I miss the form factor but not really that much, not after all of the advantages the Sony gives. The lenses they are putting out yes, I wish they were smaller, but you have plenty great of small lens options that can be adapted to the Sony cameras if you don't need AF (or in the case of the Contax lenses if you don't mind noisy AF) where you still won't get that quality sensor in that small a package in any other way, period. I don't think you can really expect to have a small 70-200 2.8.

With the amount of adapters available I would say having the same lens mount over time isn't exactly as important as it used to be. Everyone gets pissed when apple replaces a charging port standard but they eventually just get used to it, and it's usually done because they have figured out a better way.

The A7RII isn't perfect, but it's the most groundbreaking and freeing camera I've purchased in probably 10 years. If I didn't so enjoy the sometimes slower, more methodical method of medium format and the particular look that my 645D sensor gives (neither of which are better than the Sony in any practical terms) I'd probably have no reason to hang on to it.
02-11-2016, 02:20 PM - 1 Like   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
I'd like to believe that, but Sony is a successful mammoth of a company that is now always under pressure to deliver their stockholders' expectations, a victim of their wild successes in the past, and their sheer size. As such, their tireless pursuit for innovation has always been commendable, but again, this is also their biggest curse. They are quick to adopt (not adapt!) to a standard, but they can leave it as quickly if it does not deliver the growing stockholders (not stakeholders, which includes customers) expectations. They can open the valve and spend huge sum of money to prime it, but they can as quickly drop it like a hot potato.

Off the top of my head:

1. Betamax (vs JVC's VHS)
2. Digital Audio Tape (vs casette tapes)
3. Minidisc (vs Philip's Compact Discs)
4. ATRAC (vs MP3)
5. Memory Sticks (vs CF)
6. Universal Media Disc (vs digital distribution)

Among product lines they have surprisingly "dropped" recently after losing billions of dollars:
1. VAIO
2. Bravia

I can be 100% wrong, but as a photography hobbyist wearing my financial/market analyst' hat, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Sony.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think if you were to bet on it, you would do more based on each company's history and Pentax has a lot more conservative history when it comes to these things than does Sony. I would guess both would be around in 15 years, but 15 years is a long time in a business that seems to be declining overall. The question in my mind has more to do with what Sony is going to do down the line when their ability to innovate plateaus and their customers don't need to purchase a camera every couple of years.

The reality is that folks, like yourself, who purchased an A7r II are not going to be rushing out to buy another Sony camera for a little while. And because of the fact that the FE mount allows for a lot of different lenses to be used, I would bet that Sony actually sells fewer lenses than other brands, for similarly priced cameras. Mirrorless cameras have avoided much of the market decline SLRs have seen for awhile, but I think it is coming for them soon as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by petrakka Quote
I guess we'll see what happens, but I think Sony has actually done pretty well with their mirrorless. I would say it's about as big an industry shakeup as when Canon came out with the first 5D and it was mildly affordable to shoot full frame.

I know a lot of professional photographers in the editorial, photojournalism and commercial worlds who have switched over to Sony from either Canon or Nikon. Some folks on the NYT staff have switched over. The only area where it can't really keep up is with sports and even that is changing. I just did a commercial running shoot and mostly used the A7RII and 55 - and it kept up as well as my Nikon would have for all practical purposes, and it was really nice having the smaller camera do all of this so well.

The A7RII isn't perfect, but it's the most groundbreaking and freeing camera I've purchased in probably 10 years. If I didn't so enjoy the sometimes slower, more methodical method of medium format and the particular look that my 645D sensor gives (neither of which are better than the Sony in any practical terms) I'd probably have no reason to hang on to it.
Dang - you folks, including those i may not have quoted - are good debaters with good points.

I'll tell you something negative about the Sony FF, i don't think the dust cleaner technology is near as good as the K3. It kinda wobbles the camera as it shakes, and from the dust spots i've tried it on - didn't seem to move anything. This could be related to the larger size of the FF sensor. Plus you need to find it in the menu each time - PITA.

So i told you something negative about my camera, now the positive. I really do like the lo light performance of the FF sensor. And i suspect many of you are going to really really like the Pentax FF when it gets here. If you don't shoot in the sometimes dim conditions i do, then APS will do the job nicely, IMO.

As Petrakka points out, I've got the lenses i need now and will not buy any of the heavy zooms coming out. The Sony FF has turned me into a prime shooter because of their light weight and fast design. Specifically the 28 f2 and the 55 f1.8 are the ones i use 90 per cent of the time. Frankly, i could have had the same quality lenses cheaper with Pentax - i'm saying that so you don't have to

But i do like the A7r2 body weight and size and the IBIS of course.
02-11-2016, 05:16 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
1. Betamax (vs JVC's VHS)
2. Digital Audio Tape (vs casette tapes)
all tape formats are dead, what planet have you been living on? lol

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
3. Minidisc (vs Philip's Compact Discs)
wrong, both sony and philips invented the compact disc: "The success of the compact disc has been credited to the cooperation between Philips and Sony, who came together to agree upon and develop compatible hardware."

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
4. ATRAC (vs MP3)
no, atrac was designed in part to protect creator rights using drm, which you as a photographer should be able to understand... mp3 only became popular because it was easy to use for thieves and hackers, to store stolen content.

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
5. Memory Sticks (vs CF)
yes, proprietary standards tend to fail, i wonder how proprietary lens mounts on dslrs will fare over the next 10 years...

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
6. Universal Media Disc (vs digital distribution)
the cd format is also failing when compared to digital distribution:
"On the face of it, its terrible news. Annual CD album sales in the US have plummeted 78% over the last 10 years, from 651m in 2004 to just 141m in 2014.
Or to put it another way, the US CD albums market has shrunk dramatically to just a fifth of its size in the space of a decade."
Why the music business would be mad to let the CD die - Music Business Worldwide

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
Among product lines they have surprisingly "dropped" recently after losing billions of dollars:
1. VAIO
2. Bravia
"SUCCESSES & FAILURES OF JAPANESE CROSS BORDER M&A (#3 RICOH AND IKON)
January 8, 2014
By Pernille Rudlin

Ricoh undertook a 10,000 person restructuring in 2011, using the usual method in Japan of trying to force into early retirement or transfer to subsidiaries their unwanted staff. This resulted in a judgement in the Tokyo courts in favour of two Japanese Ricoh employees on their claim that they had been unfairly forced to transfer to a subsidiary.

The Nikkei Business magazine, in its recent series on the successes and failures of Japanese cross-border M&A links this domestic issue to Ricohs acquisition of the US office equipment distributor Ikon Office Solutions in 2008 for $1.6bn. Ricoh acquired Ikon in order to compete with Canon, particularly in trying to enter the office tablet and projector markets in developed countries. However, just as with Nippon Sheet Glass/Pilkington and Daiichi Sankyo/Ranbaxy, the sudden change in operating environment from the Lehman Shock meant that Ricohs resulting bloated structure with many overlaps following the acquisition became a far more acute problem." Successes & Failures of Japanese cross border M&A (#3 Ricoh and Ikon) | Rudlin Consulting

QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
I can be 100% wrong, but as a photography hobbyist wearing my financial/market analyst' hat, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on Sony.
see the ricoh gross mis-managment failure listed above, it spawned multiple lawsuits from employees... by "overlaps" he means that ricoh spent years selling competing products out of the same offices, they couldn't consolidate anything, it was a serious problem.

sony is currently on course to make nearly double the profit that ricoh will make this year, they'll do fine... by comparison, pentax market share has dropped to maybe 1% in 2015.
02-11-2016, 07:11 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

One could credibly debate that the FE mount will survive longer than the K mount. Not that it matters. 15 years from now, all existing lens mounts will likely be in museums and collections.
Other than the nice examples of Sony bailing out whenever they feel they are not making enough money, I do think K mount (as will F mount), being rather rudimentary with less electronics will survive in some form or another compared to FE mount.

As long as someone makes a short flange distance MILC, the K mount lens can be used as long as an adapter is being made.
A simple dummy one will do, no electronics and reverse engineering required.

However, for the FE mount (as well as most mirrorless lenses), its practically unusable w/o the electronic communications.
No way to focus and control the aperture.
Any adapter for FE lenses to be used on any other camera should Sony not make FE-mount cameras anymore will need a lot more reverse engineering and some electronics (potentially affecting AF speeds as well as can be see in the various iterations of adapters and firmware for EOS>NEX adapters)
Add to that, the already shorter flange distance does mean that any potential MILC that it can adapt to has to have as short or shorter flange distance, which is less likely.
02-11-2016, 08:52 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
Drop $2000 on a lens and suddenly i'll start taking beautiful, compelling, powerful images that I never could before with my cheapo 350 buck Sigma super zoom.
Humbug.
Yes if you take beautiful, compelling, powerful images now, then, with a $2000 lens it will be more beautiful, compelling, and more powerful imaging than you could with el cheapo lens
02-11-2016, 11:27 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Other than the nice examples of Sony bailing out whenever they feel they are not making enough money, I do think K mount (as will F mount), being rather rudimentary with less electronics will survive in some form or another compared to FE mount.

As long as someone makes a short flange distance MILC, the K mount lens can be used as long as an adapter is being made.
A simple dummy one will do, no electronics and reverse engineering required.

However, for the FE mount (as well as most mirrorless lenses), its practically unusable w/o the electronic communications.
No way to focus and control the aperture.
Any adapter for FE lenses to be used on any other camera should Sony not make FE-mount cameras anymore will need a lot more reverse engineering and some electronics (potentially affecting AF speeds as well as can be see in the various iterations of adapters and firmware for EOS>NEX adapters)
Add to that, the already shorter flange distance does mean that any potential MILC that it can adapt to has to have as short or shorter flange distance, which is less likely.
That may be true, but it doesn't seem to be helping Pentax sell cameras.
02-12-2016, 02:59 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
That may be true, but it doesn't seem to be helping Pentax sell cameras.
Sony sales have plunged over the last three years, Phil.
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