[Rondec]

That may be true, but it doesn't seem to be helping Pentax sell cameras.

I think the question isn't really selling cameras (although it does look like Pentax sales are up considerably in Japan), it is about selling lenses. The problem with a mount with a shorter registration distance is that while plenty of folks will buy a A7 or A7r to try their old FD lenses or K mount lenses, I don't see a lot of folks willing to pay Sony's asking prices for their top end lenses.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 06:11 AM ----------

These lenses use ground breaking technology. This tech will likely one day be used by Pentax and other Lens brands.

Perhaps. But do we really think that their G Master 70-200 f2.8 is going to out perform, for example, the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II? And if so, what situations do you think you could tell a difference between the two lenses?

My Spidey Sense tells me that these lenses will perform admirably but, that most of this is hype. Nikon and Canon have great 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8 and 85mm f1.4 lenses on the market currently and I don't imagine that in a shoot out you would actually see a difference with regard to actual image quality in real life situations (although odds are if you mount these G Master lenses on an older Sony mirrorless camera the auto focus speed is going to lag in comparison with most current Canon/Nikon full frame models).

[wildman]

Yes if you take beautiful, compelling, powerful images now, then, with a $2000 lens it will be more beautiful, compelling, and more powerful imaging than you could with el cheapo lens

And if you are now taking dull, uninteresting, mediocre images with "cheap" glass, with $2000 glass you will be taking tack sharp dull, uninteresting, mediocre images.

[JohnBee]

Sony got some serious glass coming...
Sony Unveils Its New G Master Line of Flagship Lenses

Good move on Sony's part.
Looks like they are setting up for the infamous A9 series which could likely hit the 60mp range and would have been in dire need of some better glass in order to deliver.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 08:34 AM ----------

After reading through the thread, I think it's safe to say there are few, if any Sony mirrorless fans here

That said, I'm quite happy to see companies like Sony push the envelope by developing lenses intended for higher res. sensors rather than to redundantly push toward or beyond the existing limitations of the glass that's already out there. Not to mention, designing lenses with characteristics such as bokeh in mind. Which other manufacturers should take note of as these are the types details that really matter to shooters.

[Winder]

I just want Sony to make mounts that can be used forever.

The FE mount has become the ultimate universal mount. You can get adapters for 90% of the different lenses that have been made in the last 50 years or longer. Because of this, I think FE will be around a long, long time.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 09:48 AM ----------

Sony sales have plunged over the last three years, Phil.

Sales (volume) has plunged for everyone who makes P&S and entry level cameras. Both Sony and Fuji have improved profitability by selling higher end cameras and lenses, but fewer numbers. Sony has done very well with FE mount.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 09:52 AM ----------

I don't see a lot of folks willing to pay Sony's asking prices for their top end lenses.

Zeiss would disagree with you. Zeiss has not been able to keep up with demand for the premium Batis or Loxia lenses. Great news from Zeiss: Batis production increased! | sonyalpharumors

"The worldwide positive feedback from the first product reviews about the ZEISS Batis lenses and the demand for the lenses has been overwhelming.
We made the first shipments of the ZEISS Batis lenses to our global distribution partner network in mid-July 2015. Additional shipments were made in August 2015 and a more substantial volume of lenses is scheduled in September 2015, thanks to an expansion of the production capacity. This expansion will help serving the global markets more efficiently in the coming months.
At this time, the global demand is much higher than our current supply and we anticipate a wait of several months for orders which are placed now. If you have already ordered the lens from one of our dealers, then we will ship on a first-in, first-out basis depending on when the order was received. It is not possible for us to accurately predict when you will receive your order, since this is also dependent on our international distribution partners’ and local dealers’ allocation process which we have no influence over. In general, orders placed in late April and May should be delivered in the coming weeks, with later orders shipped in the months of October and November.
If you are interested, order immediately so as to obtain your ZEISS Batis lenses as soon as possible."

[philbaum]

Sony sales have plunged over the last three years, Phil.

Unit numbers have plunged but profits have soared. Sony did what Nikon did, sell more premium FF cameras, reduce emphasis on APS. Now they've come back with the A6300 to prop up unit numbers again. Its a balancing act.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 10:28 AM ----------

The pixel density of even a 60MP FF sensor would be equivalent to that of a 26MP sensor on APS-C, so roughly equivalent to what they are already doing now with the A6xxx range, A77, etc. at 24.3MP, and for which current glass is far from the limiting factor.

While granted this does not take into account potential edge performance improvements, it's a super common misconception that FF is somehow more demanding in terms of resolution than APS-C, when in most cases, the opposite is true (not to mention, they are more forgiving with diffraction). Heck, I have seen many people here wondering whether quality FA glass will be outresolved on the Pentax FF, when they will be stepping down significantly in pixel density from what they are already experiencing on their K3s, which at a 55MP FF equivalent pixel density is significantly greater than that of even a 42MP sensor, let alone the 36MP sensor that many rumors suggest.

Thank you for saying that. I think some of that misconception came out of the "shutter shock" period with the D800 and A7r. Nikon came out with that infamous advice that greater care was required of high resolution cameras, use of tripods etc. After Nikon and Sony implemented reduced shutter shock actions, no more complaints. With the A7R2, i'm using tripods less and getting better results. Altho there is still a need for tripods on occasion :-)

[philbaum]

I think the question isn't really selling cameras (although it does look like Pentax sales are up considerably in Japan), it is about selling lenses. The problem with a mount with a shorter registration distance is that while plenty of folks will buy a A7 or A7r to try their old FD lenses or K mount lenses, I don't see a lot of folks willing to pay Sony's asking prices for their top end lenses.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 06:11 AM ----------



Perhaps. But do we really think that their G Master 70-200 f2.8 is going to out perform, for example, the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II? And if so, what situations do you think you could tell a difference between the two lenses?
).

As to prices, it wasn't that long ago that folks on this forum were complaining about Pentax lens prices. Now they are relatively a good bargain. The point is that any mfr is going to start the list price high, then let it float down to the sweet spot on the price/demand curve. It may not happen overnight, but it will happen.

As to out-performing Nikon 70-200 - i don't' buy lenses to make test charts and out perform other mfr lenses. I buy lenses to enable me to take dramatic good selling pics. I like to carry the lightweight small A7r2 body and with smallish lightweight primes - its a good combination for taking pics. Its not about spec sheets, its about a combo to enable one to get to the end goal of excellent images. Its not that infrequently one can't use unusually heavy or long lenses, but thats not its primary intended operating mode. geez, at first folks complained about Sony not having any f2.8 zoom lenses, now that they do, they complain about that

Good move on Sony's part.
Looks like they are setting up for the infamous A9 series which could likely hit the 60mp range and would have been in dire need of some better glass in order to deliver.

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 08:34 AM ----------

After reading through the thread, I think it's safe to say there are few, if any Sony mirrorless fans here

That said, I'm quite happy to see companies like Sony push the envelope by developing lenses intended for higher res. sensors rather than to redundantly push toward or beyond the existing limitations of the glass that's already out there. Not to mention, designing lenses with characteristics such as bokeh in mind. Which other manufacturers should take note of as these are the types details that really matter to shooters.

I see user names on some Sony forums that i'm more used to see on Pentax Forums. I don't think thats any coincidence. One of the hallmarks of Pentax were small and light DSLR cameras and lenses. One of the hallmarks of Sony is small and lightweight mirrorless cameras and lenses. Small and lightweight products sell to a certain niche of buyers. Like the niche that buys smart phones

[osv]

The FE mount has become the ultimate universal mount. You can get adapters for 90% of the different lenses that have been made in the last 50 years or longer. Because of this, I think FE will be around a long, long time.

exactly... the fact that you have to articulate something that is so obvious speaks volumes about the level of conversation in this thread.

Sales (volume) has plunged for everyone who makes P&S and entry level cameras. Both Sony and Fuji have improved profitability by selling higher end cameras and lenses, but fewer numbers. Sony has done very well with FE mount.

yes, canikon sales volume has of course plummeted, for interchangeable lens cameras as well, here is the nikon data from a few days ago:

"Digital SLR cameras and interchangeable lenses fell short of the planned sales volume." Nikon published their financial results for the third quarter | Nikon Rumors

---------- Post added 02-12-16 at 12:55 PM ----------

After reading through the thread, I think it's safe to say there are few, if any Sony mirrorless fans here

there are more sony owners in this thread than non-sony owners

and i seem to remember that you had purchased a sony mirrorless camera as well?

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[petrakka]

Here's the thing - IQ may not be THE argument to get the Sony.

But the fact that I can easily fit my Sony in my messenger laptop bag and just have it with me basically everywhere I go and have that IQ that is at least equal to all of the other small format cameras, that's where the game changer thing comes in. There's no smaller more practical solution for such good quality. It's why people love (/used to love) Leicas and Contax 35mm p/s cameras, you don't get that IQ in that small of a camera anywhere else, but now Sony is better(/equal to depending on what you like) and more versatile than Leica digital, and it's just as small, AND if now you want to use it with big old honking telephoto and constant aperture slr style zoom lenses you can also do that too (you were limited on the Leicas). You pay for it, and they may not be any better optically than the SLR versions, but if you don't need a separate system to use those, well then that's a money saving argument. I actually think that the Sony is the most versatile thing out there right now for this reason. It can't shoot quite everything yet, but it's pretty close, and it can go almost anywhere at the size/weight it's at.

I hope they stay and business and keep evolving their stuff. The day I can confidently sell all of my Nikon stuff (it's almost there, but sometimes I just work that is a little too action/sports heavy still) and just be down to Sony and Pentax 645 for all my digital work I will be pretty happy.

[osv]

i think that the efcs implementation on the a7rii is one of the most compelling reasons to go sony ff... zero vibration of any kind to 1/1000th? no dslr on the market today can match it, because they all have gotchas like having to be in mirror-up mode... the 5dsr got an expensive re-designed shutter, it's the best dslr shutter on the market? but it still can't match the a7rii efcs.

[Rondec]

As to prices, it wasn't that long ago that folks on this forum were complaining about Pentax lens prices. Now they are relatively a good bargain. The point is that any mfr is going to start the list price high, then let it float down to the sweet spot on the price/demand curve. It may not happen overnight, but it will happen.

As to out-performing Nikon 70-200 - i don't' buy lenses to make test charts and out perform other mfr lenses. I buy lenses to enable me to take dramatic good selling pics. I like to carry the lightweight small A7r2 body and with smallish lightweight primes - its a good combination for taking pics. Its not about spec sheets, its about a combo to enable one to get to the end goal of excellent images. Its not that infrequently one can't use unusually heavy or long lenses, but thats not its primary intended operating mode. geez, at first folks complained about Sony not having any f2.8 zoom lenses, now that they do, they complain about that



I see user names on some Sony forums that i'm more used to see on Pentax Forums. I don't think thats any coincidence. One of the hallmarks of Pentax were small and light DSLR cameras and lenses. One of the hallmarks of Sony is small and lightweight mirrorless cameras and lenses. Small and lightweight products sell to a certain niche of buyers. Like the niche that buys smart phones

I thought this thread wasn't talking about just any Sony lenses, but their G Master lenses in particular. As far as I can tell, the 24-70 can be pre-ordered for 2200, the 85mm f1.4 for 1800, and the 70-200 seems to be unknown. And that is fine if folks have the money and like their Sony mirrorless camera and want more automatic features, then this is probably the answer for them. Certainly none of these are small lenses and once you mount a 70-200 f2.8 on your A7r II, its smallish size is swallowed up by the large size that the lens is. It is anything but easily portable.

The main point of my comment was that it seems as though Sony fans act as though Sony has invented the camera. Their lenses are ground breaking amazing stuff that has never been seen before. But the reality is that designing a high quality 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8 or even an 85mm f1.4 lens is not rocket science. Canon and Nikon and Sigma have really nice lenses in these classes already. I'm sure that the Sony lenses will be fine, maybe even great -- but there are lots of great lenses in these classes already and real world shooting is unlikely to demonstrate dramatic differences between them.

[philbaum]

I thought this thread wasn't talking about just any Sony lenses, but their G Master lenses in particular.

The main point of my comment was that it seems as though Sony fans act as though Sony has invented the camera.

Well, this thread started out talking about G Master lenses, but then it rapidly turned into trash talking about Sony cameras. Where did anyone say "Sony had invented the camera". Not I or any other Sony owner. We do try to inject some balance into the trash talking. Every camera maker has produced some good ideas and some less than desirable issues as well.

This tribalism about camera mfr is so silly.

The G Master lenses are not something i will ever buy, the 70-200F4 is enough. Even that is more than i want to carry if i'll be walking the Seattle waterfront for hours. But I don't doubt there are wedding pros that would appreciate the G Master - i guess.

[Winder]

The main point of my comment was that it seems as though Sony fans act as though Sony has invented the camera. Their lenses are ground breaking amazing stuff that has never been seen before.

Who here has implied this?

If Sony makes lenses small and economical you complain that they need too much software based correction. If Sony makes them optically correct you complain they are too big an expensive. Nothing Sony is going to make will make you happy, so why do you bother to read and respond to the Sony threads?

Sony is making these lenses for: "spatial frequency at 50 lines per mm. Canon-Nikon lenses are somewhere between 10 and 30lpmm while the best Zeiss lenses do scratch the 40lpmm mark."
These are not going to be small or cheap lenses. The D-FA* 70-200mm isn't a small and cheap lens either. I don't see you complaining about that lens up on that thread. Why is that?

[Rondec]

Well, this thread started out talking about G Master lenses, but then it rapidly turned into trash talking about Sony cameras. Where did anyone say "Sony had invented the camera". Not I or any other Sony owner. We do try to inject some balance into the trash talking. Every camera maker has produced some good ideas and some less than desirable issues as well.

This tribalism about camera mfr is so silly.

The G Master lenses are not something i will ever buy, the 70-200F4 is enough. Even that is more than i want to carry if i'll be walking the Seattle waterfront for hours. But I don't doubt there are wedding pros that would appreciate the G Master - i guess.

I have no problem with your or Winder's attitude about Sony. They are nice lenses. OSV and Silver Surfer seem to take their worship of Sony a little far. Silver Surfer said "These lenses use ground breaking technology." And that maybe some day other brands (like Pentax) would use similar tech to try to catch up with Sony.

When I read press releases -- whether from Sony or from Ricoh -- I do it with skepticism, Pentax probably won't have as good auto focus as a D5. I'm hopeful that their 70-200 will have similar performance to Canon and Nikon's but I choose to wait and see. I'm not buying the Pentax 70-200. It is too big a lens and I don't shoot telephoto that much and so I haven't posted much at all in the 70-200 threads.

I just get a little annoyed when folks post press releases and then proclaim something as the next greatest thing.

[Winder]

I do it with skepticism, Pentax probably won't have as good auto focus as a D5. I'm hopeful that their 70-200 will have similar performance to Canon and Nikon's but I choose to wait and see.

I think Ricoh is going to surprise people with the AF performance. PDAF technology is ancient by technology standards and their is no good reason not to have excellent PDAF performance. I think the lenses have been the weak link, and they are fixing that. Better software, faster AF motors, faster PDAF processors, more sensitive PDAF points, combine for a much better system. I think there is too much play in screw drive motors to be consistently accurate with high resolution images.

[wildman]

real world shooting is unlikely to demonstrate dramatic differences between them.

From what I have seen these gear threads very rarely have much to do with the real world practical application of gear - so what else is new?