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08-25-2016, 01:34 PM   #31
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sensor pdaf will also be less effective with stopped down viewing i guess.

08-25-2016, 04:59 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
sensor pdaf will also be less effective with stopped down viewing i guess.
Yep, i think thats the root of the problem. One doesn't have some percentage of light being diverted by the mirror in a DSLR, but on the other hand, the size of the AF sensor area is limited by what can be "stolen" from the mirrorless image sensor. Maybe future mirrorless designers will find a way to overcome the difficulty.
08-26-2016, 10:41 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I'm talking about AF. All mirrorless, i think, need to go to the widest aperture to maximize the light on the sensor, where the focus sensors are located, in low light situations that is..
Hang on, don't SLR's also focus and meter wide open? Why would it specifically be an issue for mirrorless?
08-26-2016, 12:27 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
Hang on, don't SLR's also focus and meter wide open? Why would it specifically be an issue for mirrorless?
That the opposite. DSLR need to focus wide open to get enough light for our eyes and PDAF. The compromize is that if the lens is soft wide open the AF is less precise and also that you don't see the actual dof on the picture but the dof you would have wide open.

A mirrorless doens't need that becaause it can amplify the signal and thus display a result that match more accurately how the photo will look like. You get the noise, the exposure, the histogram and the dof directly on the EVF. Well for dof, it depend of the camera, as explained.

08-26-2016, 07:03 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
That the opposite. DSLR need to focus wide open to get enough light for our eyes and PDAF. The compromize is that if the lens is soft wide open the AF is less precise and also that you don't see the actual dof on the picture but the dof you would have wide open.

A mirrorless doens't need that becaause it can amplify the signal and thus display a result that match more accurately how the photo will look like. You get the noise, the exposure, the histogram and the dof directly on the EVF. Well for dof, it depend of the camera, as explained.
Yes but we were talking about focus shift being an issue on mirrorless. I was asking why it wouldn't also be an issue on SLR's? The original point was that focus shift was an issue inherent in the design of mirrorless.

Anyway, mirrorless will have exactly the same issue as SLR's if focussing stopped down. Ie. Less light coming through the lens means less light to focus.
08-26-2016, 07:15 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
Yes but we were talking about focus shift being an issue on mirrorless. I was asking why it wouldn't also be an issue on SLR's? The original point was that focus shift was an issue inherent in the design of mirrorless.
I had thought that focus shift is a lens issue. The camera does nothing {other than recording it} to light once it has entered the body.
08-26-2016, 09:41 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I had thought that focus shift is a lens issue. The camera does nothing {other than recording it} to light once it has entered the body.
Focus shift concerns the change in focus point at different apertures. So if the lens is focussed wide open, then stopped down for exposure (ie. The way SLR's work), focus shift will affect the final image (if there is any shift).

On the other hand, if the camera body allows focus at the taking aperture (eg. adapted manual lenses on mirrorless) focus shift becomes irrelevant.

So yes, focus shift is a product of the lens, but the way the body works determines whether you will actually see the shift.

08-27-2016, 02:59 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
Focus shift concerns the change in focus point at different apertures. So if the lens is focussed wide open, then stopped down for exposure (ie. The way SLR's work), focus shift will affect the final image (if there is any shift).

On the other hand, if the camera body allows focus at the taking aperture (eg. adapted manual lenses on mirrorless) focus shift becomes irrelevant.

So yes, focus shift is a product of the lens, but the way the body works determines whether you will actually see the shift.
And also the registration distance alter the optical design you may end up with.
08-27-2016, 05:49 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by GateCityRadio Quote
A-Mount is dead, just like the Q is dead and the NX is dead. The Sony E-mount and Fuji X mount are the way of the [Mirrorless] future!
I have an A7II and its a great camera, but I don't think the Sony E mount is the future. The E-mount was not originally designed for a FF sensor. E mount has some compromises which make the lenses for it more expensive to produce. Someone is going to produce a FF mirrorless (or larger) with the correct mount and it will have a price advantage over the Sony E mount. Olympus has patented 7 FF mirrorless lenses in the past couple of years. Fuji has been considering a MF mirrorless.

Sony, by their own admission, was surprised by the success of the the FE line. That is why there were so few lenses for so long. Sony was still focused on A-mount when the A7 line took off. I don't think Sony understands photographers and they have repeatedly missed the market with products. If a company like Fuji or Olympus bring a FF mirrorless to market I think Sony is in trouble.

I don't think A-mount is dead. Sony can remove the mirror from the A-mount and use the A7rII sensor. They can turn the A-mount into a professional line of FF mirrorless cameras with a full lens line-up overnight. Larger body with bigger battery and more processing power. The system can be re-invented for practically nothing. The A7 line desperately needs bigger batteries and more processing power, but by the time you add those things you end up with a larger body like the A99, so what is the point?
08-27-2016, 06:45 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by GateCityRadio Quote
A-Mount is dead, just like the Q is dead and the NX is dead.
And Nikon 1 is dead.


We have far to many different mounts for the shrinking market for camera's. Also to many brands active in this market. So over the next two years I predict that there will be a shake-up and some brands will disappear.
08-27-2016, 07:03 AM   #41
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Mainstream
dslr: three brands Canon Nikon Pentax
mirrorless: four brands; Sony, Fuji, Olympus Panasonic (and Canon if you take their m camera's seriously.)

That is not that many. 7 brands, 6 mounts (well 7 if A-mount is not dead) Other brands are niche or luxury players.
08-27-2016, 07:53 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Mainstream
dslr: three brands Canon Nikon Pentax
mirrorless: four brands; Sony, Fuji, Olympus Panasonic (and Canon if you take their m camera's seriously.)

That is not that many. 7 brands, 6 mounts (well 7 if A-mount is not dead) Other brands are niche or luxury players.
Canon has three mounts, since aps-c doesn't fit fullframe and m.
Pentax has K, Q and 645
Nikon has F (aps-c and ff lenses) and 1
Sony has A and E and both aps-c and fullframe lenses.
Hasselblad has two mounts.
PhaseOne is there.
Leica got way to many. M-mount is the important one.
4/3th and m4/3th are still around
Sigma has SA.
Fujifilm has X
Samsung NX (while dead) is still a little around, their NX mini has disappeared.


We could do with less when the market will shrink. Nikon and Canon maybe come with mirrorless fullframe. Fujifilm maybe enters mirrorless 645. Olympus is maybe doing something with mirrorless fullframe, but that might be joining in on Sony.
08-27-2016, 09:41 AM   #43
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I consider Q, Nikon 1 as discontinued. MF is not really a consumer mount. Canon won't ditch any mount except maybe ef-m but they probably have a long term plan for that one too.
A-mount is also about dead. I don't care how many tiny niche mounts are there. Those hardly matter. A mount is a part of a camera system. There will probably also be new mounts (New Nikon mirrorless) Fuji FF or MF. Oly and Panasonic might decide m43 is a dead end and introduce a new FF mount. Leica live in their own universe.
08-27-2016, 10:03 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I have an A7II and its a great camera, but I don't think the Sony E mount is the future. The E-mount was not originally designed for a FF sensor. E mount has some compromises which make the lenses for it more expensive to produce. Someone is going to produce a FF mirrorless (or larger) with the correct mount and it will have a price advantage over the Sony E mount. Olympus has patented 7 FF mirrorless lenses in the past couple of years. Fuji has been considering a MF mirrorless.

Sony, by their own admission, was surprised by the success of the the FE line. That is why there were so few lenses for so long. Sony was still focused on A-mount when the A7 line took off. I don't think Sony understands photographers and they have repeatedly missed the market with products. If a company like Fuji or Olympus bring a FF mirrorless to market I think Sony is in trouble.

I don't think A-mount is dead. Sony can remove the mirror from the A-mount and use the A7rII sensor. They can turn the A-mount into a professional line of FF mirrorless cameras with a full lens line-up overnight. Larger body with bigger battery and more processing power. The system can be re-invented for practically nothing. The A7 line desperately needs bigger batteries and more processing power, but by the time you add those things you end up with a larger body like the A99, so what is the point?
True, I agree that the A-Mount has a lot tp offer still and can live along side of the E-Mount. The main reason I say it is dead is because Sony hasn't done much since the FE mount came about to keep it alive. They did come out with one APS-C A-Mount camera in the last year or so...but they desperately need more lenses in the E-Mount, even their APS-C E-Mount lens catalog is sad. I think it's just the another case of stretched resources...kind of like Ricoh/Pentax who now has the Q, 645, APS-C K, and FF K. I think the APS-C line is fine, but the Q and 645 are missing several focal lengths, and the FF has the zoom range pretty much covered but we really need updated primes.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
And Nikon 1 is dead.


We have far to many different mounts for the shrinking market for camera's. Also to many brands active in this market. So over the next two years I predict that there will be a shake-up and some brands will disappear.
Yeah I forgot to add that one.
08-27-2016, 11:07 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't think A-mount is dead. Sony can remove the mirror from the A-mount and use the A7rII sensor. They can turn the A-mount into a professional line of FF mirrorless cameras with a full lens line-up overnight.
This is valid for Canon, Nikon, Pentax too. If canon and Sony both make a mirrorless for their old DSLR mount, Canon gona win, that obvious. I don't think canon would have any issue doing so, they just wait for the right moment, like Nikon.

Pentax I don't know, many think they are hurt by the K01 experience that honestly was a failure as much because the AF was bad and the design objectionable on top of lacking an EVF than because mirrorless K-mount was a bad idea.

And while for mirrorless APSC Fuji mount might be better but for FF, K-mount is a better compromize.
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