Is the A-mount dead/end of the SLT

RonHendriks1966 · 08-27-2016, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

I consider Q, Nikon 1 as discontinued. MF is not really a consumer mount. Canon won't ditch any mount except maybe ef-m but they probably have a long term plan for that one too.
A-mount is also about dead. I don't care how many tiny niche mounts are there. Those hardly matter. A mount is a part of a camera system. There will probably also be new mounts (New Nikon mirrorless) Fuji FF or MF. Oly and Panasonic might decide m43 is a dead end and introduce a new FF mount. Leica live in their own universe.

when is it niche? It looks like the market this year will be 10 million units. 7 million dslr and 3 million milc. Earning money is easy on large volume or on high prices. Leica makes a profit, Hasselblad is bleeding money. Anything under 2 % of the market in volume is getting close to being niche, but then even Pentax K-mount is niche.

D1N0 · 08-27-2016, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

when is it niche? It looks like the market this year will be 10 million units. 7 million dslr and 3 million milc. Earning money is easy on large volume or on high prices. Leica makes a profit, Hasselblad is bleeding money. Anything under 2 % of the market in volume is getting close to being niche, but then even Pentax K-mount is niche.

Having a small market share doesn't make it a niche product. Having a strange foveon sensor does. Pentax makes main stream dslrs, so they are not a niche player.

RonHendriks1966 · 08-27-2016, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by D1N0

Having a small market share doesn't make it a niche product. Having a strange foveon sensor does. Pentax makes main stream dslrs, so they are not a niche player.

Pentax is when A-mount end the niche player of dslr with Shake Reduction in the body.

(Thanks, I did learn about niche and when it can have a value)

Winder · 08-27-2016, 12:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Nicolas06

This is valid for Canon, Nikon, Pentax too. If canon and Sony both make a mirrorless for their old DSLR mount

Yes, but Sony A-mount users are already accepting of the EVF so the transition is very simple. The A99 already uses the EVF. Take the mirror out of the A99 and nobody would know.

Ricoh would do well with a mirrorless K-mount based on the LX design.

philbaum · 08-27-2016, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac

Yes but we were talking about focus shift being an issue on mirrorless. I was asking why it wouldn't also be an issue on SLR's? The original point was that focus shift was an issue inherent in the design of mirrorless.

Anyway, mirrorless will have exactly the same issue as SLR's if focussing stopped down. Ie. Less light coming through the lens means less light to focus.

To some extent you're right, you can have focus shift with DSLRs. What's different is that the focus sensor on DSLRs is not on the main sensor as it is with mirrorless. And i'll bet that makes a difference as to the size of the focus sensors on mirrorless.. These are still early days for mirrorless design compared to DSLRs.

I don't think even the DSLR makers know exactly where the photography market will be 10 years from now. Today's DSLRs and MILC may both be dead - i hope not but there hasn't been a lot of accurate predictors lately.

nickthetasmaniac · 08-27-2016, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by philbaum

What's different is that the focus sensor on DSLRs is not on the main sensor as it is with mirrorless.

But isn't that the point? If you're taking the focus reading directly off the sensor it doesn't matter if the lens has focus shift, because the body's focussing mechanism doesn't have to be calibrated to focus the lens at a specific aperture...

Nicolas06 · 08-28-2016, 12:10 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac

But isn't that the point? If you're taking the focus reading directly off the sensor it doesn't matter if the lens has focus shift, because the body's focussing mechanism doesn't have to be calibrated to focus the lens at a specific aperture...

I am always curious how you do include some PDAF sensor on the sensor itself... Supposedly better but then, doesn't it introduce small holes in the sensor dedicated to that? Also are the PDAF sensor bundled here as efficiant as the dedicated one (low light, speed, efficiancy) ?

D1N0 · 08-28-2016, 02:46 AM

described here: Canon 70D Review - Dual Pixel CMOS AF

Nicolas06 · 08-30-2016, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by D1N0

described here: Canon 70D Review - Dual Pixel CMOS AF

Quite interresting ! Thanks !

D1N0 · 09-14-2016, 07:09 AM

Sony Photokina site: Photokina 2016 | Photography Trade Show and Fair | Sony UK

Not a sign of A-mount in any of the featured sections. So either a big surprise or a big disappointment at photokina for a-mount users.

philbaum · 09-14-2016, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

I am always curious how you do include some PDAF sensor on the sensor itself... Supposedly better but then, doesn't it introduce small holes in the sensor dedicated to that? Also are the PDAF sensor bundled here as efficiant as the dedicated one (low light, speed, efficiancy) ?

I don't know either, but i'm willing to bet that on-sensor design focus imposes some limitations that aren't there for DSLRs. For example, i find it strange that Sony didn't incorporate cross focusing points in the sensor. If you're in landscape orientation, you'd better find some vertically oriented features or the camera will have a difficult time focusing. Or if you turn your camera into portrait mode, now you need some horizontal features to focus on. For a $3200 camera, one would think they could afford some cross focusing points, UNLESS, the design limitation was there that made it very difficult. There's more to this whole design story than we know - thats for sure.

philbaum · 09-15-2016, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

This is valid for Canon, Nikon, Pentax too. If canon and Sony both make a mirrorless for their old DSLR mount, Canon gona win, that obvious. I don't think canon would have any issue doing so, they just wait for the right moment, like Nikon.

Pentax I don't know, many think they are hurt by the K01 experience that honestly was a failure as much because the AF was bad and the design objectionable on top of lacking an EVF than because mirrorless K-mount was a bad idea.

And while for mirrorless APSC Fuji mount might be better but for FF, K-mount is a better compromize.

I've thought that Pentax dropped the K-01 because they were affronted by the K-01 reception. But now I think that it was a smart assessment that the K-01 did not offer the effective way forward. Moving a part of the lens into the body cavity resulted in limitations and was a long-term dead end. Sony's provided the best model for the way forward. You design a mirrorless camera around a new shorter lens mount, then provide a smart adapter to use the legacy lenses. Once in place, the adapter becomes an integral part of the body - no big deal. Long term, folks will move to new native lenses. Life's messy at times - get used to it

But i could be wrong and DSLRs will continue forever as the camera of choice for the majority. If you buy a camera for a purpose, and it fulfills that purpose, then the name on the camera body or the type of camera body matters not at all.

**BigMackCam** · 09-15-2016, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by philbaum

Sony's provided the best model for the way forward. You design a mirrorless camera around a new shorter lens mount, then provide a smart adapter to use the legacy lenses.

That was a master-stroke by Sony. Ricoh could do a lot worse than mimic that approach - develop a mirrorless Pentax camera with shorter registration distance and EVF, release it with three lenses (two fast zooms - wide/normal, normal/tele - and a variable aperture walk-around zoom), plus an adaptor for KAF4-and-earlier lenses. Pretty soon, someone would develop adaptors for other platforms' lenses. That would be sweet

reh321 · 09-16-2016, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

That was a master-stroke by Sony. Ricoh could do a lot worse than mimic that approach - develop a mirrorless Pentax camera with shorter registration distance and EVF, release it with three lenses (two fast zooms - wide/normal, normal/tele - and a variable aperture walk-around zoom), plus an adaptor for KAF4-and-earlier lenses. Pretty soon, someone would develop adapters for other platforms' lenses. That would be sweet

Yes! I keep hoping the design of the K-70 indicates exactly that in the near future. Of course, I may say the same thing five years from now, as I put my Q-7 into a padded carrier to preserve it for a few more shots.

stevebrot · 09-16-2016, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by jimr-pdx

- and wait 'til you see the Samsung NX 300/2.8!

Plans are easy, it's the doing that makes the difference.

---------- Post added 08-15-16 at 06:20 ----------

I love the related stories at the bottom! What does it say when you have to deny its demise so often? Monty Python anyone?

Related posts:

The Sony A mount is not dead
Sony A-mount is not dead, new a68 camera (ILCA-68) announced
Sony have not given up on a6000 camera replacement and A-mount
Sony confirms again that they are committed to A-mount
Sony still comitted to the A mount

DB Cooper is not dead and is still in happy retirement in Belize.

Steve

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08-27-2016, 11:27 AM	#46
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by D1N0 I consider Q, Nikon 1 as discontinued. MF is not really a consumer mount. Canon won't ditch any mount except maybe ef-m but they probably have a long term plan for that one too. A-mount is also about dead. I don't care how many tiny niche mounts are there. Those hardly matter. A mount is a part of a camera system. There will probably also be new mounts (New Nikon mirrorless) Fuji FF or MF. Oly and Panasonic might decide m43 is a dead end and introduce a new FF mount. Leica live in their own universe. when is it niche? It looks like the market this year will be 10 million units. 7 million dslr and 3 million milc. Earning money is easy on large volume or on high prices. Leica makes a profit, Hasselblad is bleeding money. Anything under 2 % of the market in volume is getting close to being niche, but then even Pentax K-mount is niche.

08-27-2016, 11:57 AM	#47
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802 Original Poster	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 when is it niche? It looks like the market this year will be 10 million units. 7 million dslr and 3 million milc. Earning money is easy on large volume or on high prices. Leica makes a profit, Hasselblad is bleeding money. Anything under 2 % of the market in volume is getting close to being niche, but then even Pentax K-mount is niche. Having a small market share doesn't make it a niche product. Having a strange foveon sensor does. Pentax makes main stream dslrs, so they are not a niche player.

08-27-2016, 12:04 PM	#48
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by D1N0 Having a small market share doesn't make it a niche product. Having a strange foveon sensor does. Pentax makes main stream dslrs, so they are not a niche player. Pentax is when A-mount end the niche player of dslr with Shake Reduction in the body. (Thanks, I did learn about niche and when it can have a value)

08-27-2016, 12:33 PM - 1 Like	#49
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Nicolas06 This is valid for Canon, Nikon, Pentax too. If canon and Sony both make a mirrorless for their old DSLR mount Yes, but Sony A-mount users are already accepting of the EVF so the transition is very simple. The A99 already uses the EVF. Take the mirror out of the A99 and nobody would know. Ricoh would do well with a mirrorless K-mount based on the LX design.

08-27-2016, 10:26 PM	#50
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac Yes but we were talking about focus shift being an issue on mirrorless. I was asking why it wouldn't also be an issue on SLR's? The original point was that focus shift was an issue inherent in the design of mirrorless. Anyway, mirrorless will have exactly the same issue as SLR's if focussing stopped down. Ie. Less light coming through the lens means less light to focus. To some extent you're right, you can have focus shift with DSLRs. What's different is that the focus sensor on DSLRs is not on the main sensor as it is with mirrorless. And i'll bet that makes a difference as to the size of the focus sensors on mirrorless.. These are still early days for mirrorless design compared to DSLRs. I don't think even the DSLR makers know exactly where the photography market will be 10 years from now. Today's DSLRs and MILC may both be dead - i hope not but there hasn't been a lot of accurate predictors lately.

08-27-2016, 10:35 PM	#51
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	Originally posted by philbaum What's different is that the focus sensor on DSLRs is not on the main sensor as it is with mirrorless. But isn't that the point? If you're taking the focus reading directly off the sensor it doesn't matter if the lens has focus shift, because the body's focussing mechanism doesn't have to be calibrated to focus the lens at a specific aperture...

08-28-2016, 12:10 AM - 1 Like	#52
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac But isn't that the point? If you're taking the focus reading directly off the sensor it doesn't matter if the lens has focus shift, because the body's focussing mechanism doesn't have to be calibrated to focus the lens at a specific aperture... I am always curious how you do include some PDAF sensor on the sensor itself... Supposedly better but then, doesn't it introduce small holes in the sensor dedicated to that? Also are the PDAF sensor bundled here as efficiant as the dedicated one (low light, speed, efficiancy) ?

08-28-2016, 02:46 AM	#53
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802 Original Poster	described here: Canon 70D Review - Dual Pixel CMOS AF

08-30-2016, 02:02 PM	#54
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by D1N0 described here: Canon 70D Review - Dual Pixel CMOS AF Quite interresting ! Thanks !

09-14-2016, 07:09 AM	#55
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802 Original Poster	Sony Photokina site: Photokina 2016 \| Photography Trade Show and Fair \| Sony UK Not a sign of A-mount in any of the featured sections. So either a big surprise or a big disappointment at photokina for a-mount users.

09-14-2016, 02:54 PM	#56
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by Nicolas06 I am always curious how you do include some PDAF sensor on the sensor itself... Supposedly better but then, doesn't it introduce small holes in the sensor dedicated to that? Also are the PDAF sensor bundled here as efficiant as the dedicated one (low light, speed, efficiancy) ? I don't know either, but i'm willing to bet that on-sensor design focus imposes some limitations that aren't there for DSLRs. For example, i find it strange that Sony didn't incorporate cross focusing points in the sensor. If you're in landscape orientation, you'd better find some vertically oriented features or the camera will have a difficult time focusing. Or if you turn your camera into portrait mode, now you need some horizontal features to focus on. For a $3200 camera, one would think they could afford some cross focusing points, UNLESS, the design limitation was there that made it very difficult. There's more to this whole design story than we know - thats for sure.

09-15-2016, 10:49 PM	#57
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by Nicolas06 This is valid for Canon, Nikon, Pentax too. If canon and Sony both make a mirrorless for their old DSLR mount, Canon gona win, that obvious. I don't think canon would have any issue doing so, they just wait for the right moment, like Nikon. Pentax I don't know, many think they are hurt by the K01 experience that honestly was a failure as much because the AF was bad and the design objectionable on top of lacking an EVF than because mirrorless K-mount was a bad idea. And while for mirrorless APSC Fuji mount might be better but for FF, K-mount is a better compromize. I've thought that Pentax dropped the K-01 because they were affronted by the K-01 reception. But now I think that it was a smart assessment that the K-01 did not offer the effective way forward. Moving a part of the lens into the body cavity resulted in limitations and was a long-term dead end. Sony's provided the best model for the way forward. You design a mirrorless camera around a new shorter lens mount, then provide a smart adapter to use the legacy lenses. Once in place, the adapter becomes an integral part of the body - no big deal. Long term, folks will move to new native lenses. Life's messy at times - get used to it But i could be wrong and DSLRs will continue forever as the camera of choice for the majority. If you buy a camera for a purpose, and it fulfills that purpose, then the name on the camera body or the type of camera body matters not at all.

09-15-2016, 11:05 PM	#58
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by philbaum Sony's provided the best model for the way forward. You design a mirrorless camera around a new shorter lens mount, then provide a smart adapter to use the legacy lenses. That was a master-stroke by Sony. Ricoh could do a lot worse than mimic that approach - develop a mirrorless Pentax camera with shorter registration distance and EVF, release it with three lenses (two fast zooms - wide/normal, normal/tele - and a variable aperture walk-around zoom), plus an adaptor for KAF4-and-earlier lenses. Pretty soon, someone would develop adaptors for other platforms' lenses. That would be sweet

09-16-2016, 07:43 AM	#59
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by BigMackCam That was a master-stroke by Sony. Ricoh could do a lot worse than mimic that approach - develop a mirrorless Pentax camera with shorter registration distance and EVF, release it with three lenses (two fast zooms - wide/normal, normal/tele - and a variable aperture walk-around zoom), plus an adaptor for KAF4-and-earlier lenses. Pretty soon, someone would develop adapters for other platforms' lenses. That would be sweet Yes! I keep hoping the design of the K-70 indicates exactly that in the near future. Of course, I may say the same thing five years from now, as I put my Q-7 into a padded carrier to preserve it for a few more shots.

09-16-2016, 11:50 AM	#60
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by jimr-pdx - and wait 'til you see the Samsung NX 300/2.8! Plans are easy, it's the doing that makes the difference. ---------- Post added 08-15-16 at 06:20 ---------- I love the related stories at the bottom! What does it say when you have to deny its demise so often? Monty Python anyone? Related posts: The Sony A mount is not dead Sony A-mount is not dead, new a68 camera (ILCA-68) announced Sony have not given up on a6000 camera replacement and A-mount Sony confirms again that they are committed to A-mount Sony still comitted to the A mount DB Cooper is not dead and is still in happy retirement in Belize. Steve