Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-11-2016, 11:51 AM   #16
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,030
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Does the 645z have a problem competing with the 5DSR?
In my opinion, yes!

Lens selection versatility: 5DSR
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency: 5DSR
Price: 5DSR
Thetering: 5DSR
Flash system: 5DSR
Portability: 5DSR
Professional service: 5DSR
Lens quality (sharpness etc): I will call it a draw
Sensor resolution: draw (K-1 PS and A7RII comes quite close, so it would probably be considered a reasonable alternative)
Dynamic range: 645Z, but this is a known Canon weakness. Other FF cameras are on par with 645Z for a much lower price.

Summed up, yes I do think 645Z struggles to compete with 5DSR on rational reasons. Of course if one have good 645/67 lenses it makes 645Z more compelling, just as having lots of L glass makes 5DSR more compelling.

09-11-2016, 12:27 PM   #17
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
In my opinion, yes!

Lens selection versatility: 5DSR
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency: 5DSR
Price: 5DSR
Thetering: 5DSR
Flash system: 5DSR
Portability: 5DSR
Professional service: 5DSR
Lens quality (sharpness etc): I will call it a draw
Sensor resolution: draw (K-1 PS and A7RII comes quite close, so it would probably be considered a reasonable alternative)
Dynamic range: 645Z, but this is a known Canon weakness. Other FF cameras are on par with 645Z for a much lower price.

Summed up, yes I do think 645Z struggles to compete with 5DSR on rational reasons. Of course if one have good 645/67 lenses it makes 645Z more compelling, just as having lots of L glass makes 5DSR more compelling.
And yet Ricoh has sold twice as many 645z units as they expected at 2x the price of the Canon 5Dsr.

You need to download and process some high ISO 5DSR files. You will find the colors start to fall apart pretty quick compared to the K-1 of the Sony A7rII. The file quality of the 645z is much better than the Canon 5DSR. If you are in studio where you can control the light, then the 5DRS is fine.

1. As I said before. People shooting MF don't need and aren't going to buy a bunch of glass. MF is a specialized system.
2. There are advantages to the larger sensor and the resolution at this point is not that important.
3. My Einstein 640's work the same with all my cameras. People shooting MF usually aren't using little flashes and TTL.

Hasselblad has a traveling art gallery you need to go see. The quality you get with larger formats is striking compared to smaller formats. There is a point of diminishing returns with resolution. You need enough resolution that you can remove the AA filter without causing a lot of problems and for a FF sensor that is 36-40MP. Go over this and you don't gain very much at all and you start to loose DR and colors become harder to get just right.
09-11-2016, 01:12 PM   #18
Pentaxian
aurele's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris, France
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,215
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
In my opinion, yes!

Lens selection versatility: 5DSR
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency: 5DSR
Price: 5DSR
Thetering: 5DSR
Flash system: 5DSR
Portability: 5DSR
Professional service: 5DSR
Lens quality (sharpness etc): I will call it a draw
Sensor resolution: draw (K-1 PS and A7RII comes quite close, so it would probably be considered a reasonable alternative)
Dynamic range: 645Z, but this is a known Canon weakness. Other FF cameras are on par with 645Z for a much lower price.

Summed up, yes I do think 645Z struggles to compete with 5DSR on rational reasons. Of course if one have good 645/67 lenses it makes 645Z more compelling, just as having lots of L glass makes 5DSR more compelling.
People that do use a MF do use it for specialised use. And the fact that the sensor is bigger, do play a role in that choice.

Also many MF body with custom chips are sold to professional is very specific domain : like museum, national archives, etc.
09-11-2016, 02:14 PM   #19
Pentaxian
Jonathan Mac's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 7,957
I can imagine a MF Fuji with their lenses being nothing short of stunning, at least in image quality. I think it would be a good move for them.

09-11-2016, 02:22 PM   #20
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,030
QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
People that do use a MF do use it for specialised use. And the fact that the sensor is bigger, do play a role in that choice.
Yes, bigger sensor plays a role, but I already mentioned that in this line:
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency): 5DSR

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
And yet Ricoh has sold twice as many 645z units as they expected at 2x the price of the Canon 5Dsr.
Please count real numbers, not in relation to early low ambitions. I wouldn't be surprised if Canon sold 10-100 times as many at half the time.
09-11-2016, 02:25 PM   #21
Banned




Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 9,674
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Summed up, yes I do think 645Z struggles to compete with 5DSR on rational reasons. Of course if one have good 645/67 lenses it makes 645Z more compelling, just as having lots of L glass makes 5DSR more compelling.
This is the most important one. When you have lenses, the investment for the body is not that spectacular. There are more people with L glass.... Still 645z can make sales and do the job needed.
09-11-2016, 03:15 PM   #22
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 23,708
I'm not the target for this camera, but I would say that Fuji doesn't need to sell a huge number of cameras in order to turn a profit. If Pentax drops the price on the 645z to match, I do wonder if Fuji will be able to sell many versus the 645z. Yes, medium format shooters don't need a bunch of lenses, but the lens line up for Pentax seems to be a lot bigger than for Fuji. I would have thought that the best option for Fuji would have been to release something different -- that is mirrorless -- to compete with current SLR medium format cameras. Losing the mirror could save a bunch of space here.

All of that said, I am convinced that Fuji has painted themselves into a corner by choosing a mount that is not full frame compatible and having their hired guns constantly spouting off about full frame being unnecessary because of how awesome APS-C is. I'm pretty sure that if they could stick a full frame sensor in their current mirrorless bodies, they would seriously consider doing that.

We've been there and plenty of Pentaxians used to say: "Who needs full frame when you can move up to medium format?" But the fact that they don't share a mount means that "moving up" isn't quite the same thing. Not sure how many current Fuji owners will be interested in such an offering. Probably more likely people who used to use Fuji Medium Format back in the day.


Last edited by Rondec; 09-11-2016 at 05:17 PM.
09-11-2016, 04:30 PM   #23
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,375
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm not the target for this camera, but I would say that Fuji doesn't need to sell a huge number of cameras in order to turn a profit. If Pentax drops the price on the 645z to match, I do wonder if Fuji will be able to sell many versus the 645z. Yes, medium format shooters don't need a bunch of lenses, but the lens line up for Pentax seems to be a lot bigger than for Fuji. I would have thought that the best option for Fuji would have been to release something different -- that is mirrorless -- to compete with current SLR medium format cameras. Losing the mirror could save a bunch of space here.

All of that said, I am convinced that Fuji has painted themselves into a corner by choosing a mount that is not full frame compatible and having their hired guns constantly spouting off about full frame being unnecessary because of how awesome APS-C is. I'm pretty sure that if they could stick a full frame camera in their current mirrorless bodies, they would seriously consider doing that.

We've been there and plenty of Pentaxians used to say: "Who needs full frame when you can move up to medium format?" But the fact that they don't share a mount means that "moving up" isn't quite the same thing. Not sure how many current Fuji owners will be interested in such an offering. Probably more likely people who used to use Fuji Medium Format back in the day.
Yes, that hits the nail on the head. I've always been tempted by Fuji but also always put off because the reality distortion field maintained by all those hired guns means that I'm never really sure what I'd be getting into, so I stay away. If Fuji decide to issue an MF camera, then one assumes they have done their research and their sums and decided there is a business case to justify it. Not that I will be affected in any way, there is zero chance of my ever owning a medium format anything. In a way, Fuji have little choice. If they feel they have taken APS-C as far as they can and want to expand, then they can only really go to MF or very small, like 1". Anything else is too close to APS-C to be presented as a genuine alternative rather than a smallish incremental change at disproportionate expense (because the lenses are all tied to a format). The other thing I suspect they missed a trick on is IBIS.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-11-2016 at 04:39 PM.
09-11-2016, 05:06 PM   #24
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,615
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Yes, bigger sensor plays a role, but I already mentioned that in this line:
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency): 5DSR


Please count real numbers, not in relation to early low ambitions. I wouldn't be surprised if Canon sold 10-100 times as many at half the time.
If you think you can simply change the lens aperture and get the same look then you don't really understand equivalency.

Canon probably has sold many, many more. They have a larger customer base and the 5DRS is almost half the price of the 645z. There is a reason why many professional photographers spend a lot of money on MF cameras and you don't seem to understand why.
09-12-2016, 01:41 AM   #25
Pentaxian
aurele's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris, France
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,215
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Yes, bigger sensor plays a role, but I already mentioned that in this line:
Lens max aperture (accounting for equivalency): 5DSR
Do you understand that a bigger sensor is usefull for various things other than thin depth of field ?

To make it very clear : the 645z is successfull among professional of museum because Ricoh does offer bodies with chips without various IR or special spectrum filter, making the 645z very interesting to photograph documents, books, papers, where ink disapeared with time, but text is still visible by IR photography or special spectrum photography. The fact that each pixel is bigger allow a better sensitivity to those lights that are harder to capture. This is why MF is use in museum archive and no 5DSR or A7 something.

And those pro-sumer do buy package for 10 years, that include usually pro-service, lens rental, special bench, software, computer, and so on.

Last edited by aurele; 09-12-2016 at 01:48 AM.
09-12-2016, 02:25 AM   #26
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 23,708
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you think you can simply change the lens aperture and get the same look then you don't really understand equivalency.

Canon probably has sold many, many more. They have a larger customer base and the 5DRS is almost half the price of the 645z. There is a reason why many professional photographers spend a lot of money on MF cameras and you don't seem to understand why.
I think people shoot medium format for the glass, which is pretty special, although it had better be for the prices charged.

That said, I think full frame is good enough at this point that it has decreased the numbers of photographers shooting medium format. There are still some who are willing to pay those prices, but I do think a D810 or even a K-1 will give good enough performance (and probably better auto focus/functionality) compared to most of the medium format cameras on the market.
09-12-2016, 05:52 AM   #27
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,030
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Summed up, yes I do think 645Z struggles to compete with 5DSR on rational reasons. Of course if one have good 645/67 lenses it makes 645Z more compelling, just as having lots of L glass makes 5DSR more compelling.
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
This is the most important one. When you have lenses, the investment for the body is not that spectacular. There are more people with L glass.... Still 645z can make sales and do the job needed.
Only that if a person chooses 5DSR, he could buy many brand new premium lenses and still not reach the price of a 645Z body, and get 1-2 stop better noise performance by opening the aperture to sizes not available at 645Z (FF equivalent apertures), if shorter DoF is ok. If shorter DoF is not OK, he could get the same noise performance by choosing about 1/2 stop larger f-number (same FF equivalent aperture and DoF). As a simple illustration of my point I pick tree primes with quite similar FoV and calculate the equivalencies:

APS-C + 35mm f/1,4 -> 52,5mm f/2,1
FF + 55mm f/1,4 -> 55mm f/1,4 <- Largest FF equivalent aperture of these three
645Z + 75mm f/2,8 -> 58,5mm f/2,18 <- Smallest FF equivalent aperture of these three

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm not the target for this camera, but I would say that Fuji doesn't need to sell a huge number of cameras in order to turn a profit. If Pentax drops the price on the 645z to match, I do wonder if Fuji will be able to sell many versus the 645z. Yes, medium format shooters don't need a bunch of lenses, but the lens line up for Pentax seems to be a lot bigger than for Fuji. I would have thought that the best option for Fuji would have been to release something different -- that is mirrorless -- to compete with current SLR medium format cameras. Losing the mirror could save a bunch of space here.
According to mirrorlessrumors its going to be mirrorless, just like Hasselblad XCD. I just think 44x33 are too close to 36x24 to compete on key areas. If they make the mount and lenses compatible with full 645 frame, then it might be a good choice in the future.

Actually I would rather have Pentax doing that. A mirrorless 645Z successor with full 645 frame sensor, short flange distance, with several adapters for current 645/67 lens compatibility:

1. A simple kit 645 adapter with AF contacts
2. A 645 adapter with internal AF (like the AF-adapter for K mount)
3. A 67 adapter with internal AF
4. A 67 focal reducer with internal AF
5. A 67 tilt-Shift adapter without AF

I would also like several VF options: A set of lens matching rangefinder type OVF, a small and cheap EVF, a large very high resolution EVF and no VF.
09-12-2016, 05:56 AM   #28
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,030
QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
Do you understand that a bigger sensor is usefull for various things other than thin depth of field ?

To make it very clear : the 645z is successfull among professional of museum because Ricoh does offer bodies with chips without various IR or special spectrum filter, making the 645z very interesting to photograph documents, books, papers, where ink disapeared with time, but text is still visible by IR photography or special spectrum photography. The fact that each pixel is bigger allow a better sensitivity to those lights that are harder to capture. This is why MF is use in museum archive and no 5DSR or A7 something.

And those pro-sumer do buy package for 10 years, that include usually pro-service, lens rental, special bench, software, computer, and so on.
None of the things you mention are medium format dependent. It could just as easily be done with full frame 35mm at a much lower price.
09-12-2016, 06:27 AM   #29
retired sw engineer
Loyal Site Supporter
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,782
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
None of the things you mention are medium format dependent. It could just as easily be done with full frame 35mm at a much lower price.
I keep hearing how FF is better than APS-C, almost by definition.
MF should have exactly the same advantages over FF, by the same definition.
09-12-2016, 09:37 AM   #30
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,375
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
None of the things you mention are medium format dependent. It could just as easily be done with full frame 35mm at a much lower price.
Then why aren't they?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, format, fuji, lenses, medium, medium format camera, september
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Hassie Medium Format announced where next for Pentax 645Z and successor itshimitis Pentax Medium Format 49 06-28-2016 12:27 AM
Fuji will launch a Medium Format camera with the Sony 50MP sensor this summer! jogiba Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 49 01-29-2016 12:09 PM
New Fuji X camera to be announced next week. Anyone else excited? leadbelly Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 181 01-18-2012 02:19 PM
Hartblei CAM: medium format camera announced rparmar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 7 09-17-2009 09:01 PM
New Fuji medium format folder LittleSkink General Talk 18 10-09-2008 04:19 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:47 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top