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02-15-2017, 03:26 PM   #46
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Why the hell do Canon always do so bloody well? I've always found Nikons to be far more appealing. Am I missing something?

02-15-2017, 03:27 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Come back in 6 months to see how the camera market developed and how sales are for Ricoh-Imaging. 2017 is going to be brutal for all but Canon.
Yeah, they seem to be issuing a camera for every conceivable taste. The Pentaxians who make such heavy use of the phrase "deal breaker" would have to actually buy something if they were Canon fans.
02-15-2017, 03:37 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
Why the hell do Canon always do so bloody well? I've always found Nikons to be far more appealing. Am I missing something?
Canon has mastered the art of using the same parts with slightly different feature sets in different camera bodies. I don't know how much mileage they got out of that sensor that was in the original 7D, but it was a lot. I think as a result, they have kept costs down a lot better than Nikon, who tends to release new products that differ a lot more from previous generations and probably are more expensive from an R and D stand point.
02-15-2017, 03:57 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by plooksta Quote
It's weird eh? They sell a shit load of cameras, at prices pound for pound twice the price as Pentax. How they mess it up? And how is Pentax not in worse straits than Nikon with their tiny margins and relatively tiny user base?
Pentax never much ramped up for the camera boom years. (in fact Hoya closed down the Japan factory)
So no extra inventory, factory, workers to pay for when all that sales projected demand does not become reality.

02-15-2017, 03:59 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Their fanboys obviously do more talking than buying.
...Really?
02-15-2017, 04:14 PM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
2017 is going to be brutal for all but Canon.
Canon is in tremendous trouble!

The unit that cameras are in had sales drop by 14% and profits by 21%.

Across the business as a whole income was down by 32%.

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2016/rslt2016e.pdf
02-15-2017, 04:33 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Canon is in tremendous trouble!

The unit that cameras are in had sales drop by 14% and profits by 21%.

Across the business as a whole income was down by 32%.

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2016/rslt2016e.pdf
It is difficult, since this is camera and printing (photoprinting). But the market sales went down 20 % according to cipa and they only lost 14 %. So they do better then thè market and gaining a bigger marketshare. The outlook for 2017 is to consolidate these sales. The profit loss is extra because of the value of the yen.

I would say there is some trouble, but not tremendous.

02-15-2017, 04:46 PM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Come back in 6 months to see how the camera market developed and how sales are for Ricoh-Imaging. 2017 is going to be brutal for all but Canon.
Really? You've been carrying that placard for three years, Ron.

They still can't build K-1 inventory, KP pre-production is sold (7000 a month?) and we haven't even seen lenses yet.

Ricoh is managing this business very well.
02-15-2017, 05:03 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
That's not Walmart, that is a third party seller via Walmart's web site. And that third party seller is scam-ish and not an authorized reseller.

People really ought to stop posting this type of stuff.
Good call. Actually, now that I think of it, I've never seen a FF DSLR in an actual walmart. Usually I see a wall assortment of entry level bodies amidst the plethora of point and shoots. Canon and Nikon only crop DSLRs.... mixture of P+S.

But I suspect shoppers of cameras at walmart are more often NOT going to be interested in upgrades or extra lenses... they will treat their DSLR as a bridge camera.
02-16-2017, 08:09 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Really? You've been carrying that placard for three years, Ron.

They still can't build K-1 inventory, KP pre-production is sold (7000 a month?) and we haven't even seen lenses yet.

Ricoh is managing this business very well.
Well in the forecast Ricoh is expecting that the current quarter is the one with the lowest sales (in yen) in the just over 5 years ownership. So things are very different when time is passing. The K-1 is all over the place in stock, so there is nothing keeping them from building inventory, except that it wouldn't be smart. Looking at 2017, I think we won't see any Q, WG-SERIES (both wg-m2 and wg-5 follower) or other compact outside GR. Theta is a series in it's own. For K-mount there is no entry level camera at the moment and probably won't be there. The K-70 is just above it, at least pricewise. So Ricoh-Imaging is changing as a company wich is smart and driven by market changes.
02-16-2017, 09:23 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well in the forecast Ricoh is expecting that the current quarter is the one with the lowest sales (in yen) in the just over 5 years ownership. So things are very different when time is passing. The K-1 is all over the place in stock, so there is nothing keeping them from building inventory, except that it wouldn't be smart. Looking at 2017, I think we won't see any Q, WG-SERIES (both wg-m2 and wg-5 follower) or other compact outside GR. Theta is a series in it's own. For K-mount there is no entry level camera at the moment and probably won't be there. The K-70 is just above it, at least pricewise. So Ricoh-Imaging is changing as a company wich is smart and driven by market changes.
The question with the K1 is straightforward. Is it selling now that the pool of existing Pentax-owners has (one presumes) been served? I wonder how many APS-C cameras Nikon have to sell to make the same amount of money as one D750 or D810. Nikon seem to have tried quite hard to transition their users to FF but one gets the feeling that a lot of them have proved curiously resistant to the idea.

Last edited by mecrox; 02-16-2017 at 09:30 AM.
02-16-2017, 10:03 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The question with the K1 is straightforward. Is it selling now that the pool of existing Pentax-owners has (one presumes) been served? I wonder how many APS-C cameras Nikon have to sell to make the same amount of money as one D750 or D810. Nikon seem to have tried quite hard to transition their users to FF but one gets the feeling that a lot of them have proved curiously resistant to the idea.
I was not-curiously resistant to the idea on the Pentax side. Even when Pentax was giving away a K-1, I explicitly announced my decision not to compete; even if I'd had a competitive image, the simple fact is that FF doesn't fit very well into the type of photography I do, and apart from the body, I would have had to make a substantial investment in new lenses to return to my current capability {viewed in terms of "35mm effective focal length"}. Maybe many Nikon users are doing the same kind of math.
02-16-2017, 10:36 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I was not-curiously resistant to the idea on the Pentax side. Even when Pentax was giving away a K-1, I explicitly announced my decision not to compete; even if I'd had a competitive image, the simple fact is that FF doesn't fit very well into the type of photography I do, and apart from the body, I would have had to make a substantial investment in new lenses to return to my current capability {viewed in terms of "35mm effective focal length"}. Maybe many Nikon users are doing the same kind of math.
Well reasoned decision on your part. In my case, I've bought more new in the box Pentax gear Dollars-wise since March, 2016 than in any single year since 2008. And all of it at a brick and mortar local Dealer with 10% Sales Tax. K-1, 28~105 and just ordered 70~200. K-1 has completely changed my approach from collecting second-hand and end-of-life Q and APSc gear to buying fewer, new, 1st quality Pentax-designed products.

My current kit (above, plus the FA Limiteds) meets all my needs but telephoto, and I have legacy manual lenses for that. If I buy a KP as a compact travel camera I'll keep the DA Limiteds. More likely they and all the remaining APSc gear will show up in the Marketplace. (The legacy film gear is a separate hobby with little crossover, but I can focus on the K-1 so the SMC lenses are getting use there.)
02-16-2017, 05:36 PM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I was not-curiously resistant to the idea on the Pentax side. Even when Pentax was giving away a K-1, I explicitly announced my decision not to compete; even if I'd had a competitive image, the simple fact is that FF doesn't fit very well into the type of photography I do, and apart from the body, I would have had to make a substantial investment in new lenses to return to my current capability {viewed in terms of "35mm effective focal length"}. Maybe many Nikon users are doing the same kind of math.
The comparable FF body in F mount is 1000 dollars more brand new (yet 3 years old design)... and cost more than that when it was launched. That alone would make some resistant to the idea of moving to FF.

If the K-1 was $2800 today, I'm sure a lot would be waiting years for it to become second hand and drop to it's current new price.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well reasoned decision on your part. In my case, I've bought more new in the box Pentax gear Dollars-wise since March, 2016 than in any single year since 2008. And all of it at a brick and mortar local Dealer with 10% Sales Tax. K-1, 28~105 and just ordered 70~200. K-1 has completely changed my approach from collecting second-hand and end-of-life Q and APSc gear to buying fewer, new, 1st quality Pentax-designed products.
Certainly a part of this is due to the K-1 and newer for-FF lenses being brand new too. We cannot easily find second hand D-FA and FF DSLR in K mount at the moment.

Had the K-1 been available second half for 20-40% less, I'm sure a lot of us would have went that route. But currently, if we want to play we must pay. The key here is in you've found it desirable enough to play early.
02-16-2017, 06:11 PM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Certainly a part of this is due to the K-1 and newer for-FF lenses being brand new too. We cannot easily find second hand D-FA and FF DSLR in K mount at the moment.

Had the K-1 been available second half for 20-40% less, I'm sure a lot of us would have went that route. But currently, if we want to play we must pay. The key here is in you've found it desirable enough to play early.
Thank you for clarifying my point

The more really good new products Pentax introduces, the less compelling bargain-buying and backward compatibility with legacy products becomes, until eventually backward compatibility itself is no longer a business threat but rather is an affinity feature.

I'm sort of there already.
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