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05-17-2017, 08:13 AM   #1
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Canon - New FF Mirrorless Coming

http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-rumor-saying-will-ff-mirrorless-instead-coming/

I think a lot of us are hoping Ricoh does the same with a new FF mirrorless and that still uses K-mount.

05-17-2017, 08:42 AM   #2
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Not gonna happen. Pentax/Ricoh have said they won't do it until they're happy with the EVF technology.

Plus, Sony currently owns mirrorless full-frame lock, stock and barrel. It's not an ecosystem anyone else should be playing in unless they're willing to spend big on the break-in, and I suspect Canon are going to find this out to their cost.

HOWEVER...

If I am wrong, and in addition if Ken Wheeler ("Angry Photographer") is right about Sony's photographic glass jaw, the results could be interesting to watch.
05-17-2017, 10:11 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-rumor-saying-will-ff-mirrorless-instead-coming/

I think a lot of us are hoping Ricoh does the same with a new FF mirrorless and that still uses K-mount.
Rumours about this have been doing the rounds for a couple of years but I've yet to read anything which sounded more than a rumour made up from another rumour. Eventually, it will turn out to be true. The only question is when.

A tricky one for Pentax. If there was a significant move towards mirrorless by the big guys, Ricoh would be faced with a difficult decision: continue as the sole camera company without a mirrorless presence or produce the investment money needed to remain competitive in the new market, the kind of money Ricoh don't seem keen to spend it must be said.

I would guess this decision, or at least the knowledge that it will eventually have to be made, may be impacting on Ricoh's plans for new lenses. Many mirrorless lenses tend to be of the PLM kind, that is, they are fast focusing because they are designed so that only one element or two actually has to move to achieve focus. In traditional lenses, many of the elements may move - that's a lot of weight for a motor to shift. Two different design approaches, or such is my understanding though maybe I'm talking nonsense. One tricky game of chess. Lenses need to stay current for many years to earn their keep.
05-17-2017, 10:28 AM - 1 Like   #4
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There is always a certain number of people on these forums who want to see an update to the K-01. Better AF, better LCD, faster burst rate, better focus peaking, better video recording (no digital SR, more manual controls, better audio connections), etc. etc. FF sensor with good bit depth would be amazing. I don't really need EVF, but lots of people want that on a mirrorless.
Then just improve the mode dial and power button, replace the yellow rubber with fake leather, and bam! Perfect mirrorless camera!

That said, I am really not holding my breath waiting for this thing. As far as I am concerned, its a dream. Ill be happy if I see it, but I don't expect a K-mount mirrorless for at least 3 years.

05-17-2017, 10:35 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Plus, Sony currently owns mirrorless full-frame lock, stock and barrel. It's not an ecosystem anyone else should be playing in unless they're willing to spend big on the break-in, and I suspect Canon are going to find this out to their cost.
Agreed - even if they were planning it, I reckon (unless they were already in full production) they'd pull it after the A9 announcement - it's likely to look a bit lame by comparison, even if a lot cheaper. they haven't been setting the world on fire with their innovations of late
05-17-2017, 02:45 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Agreed - even if they were planning it, I reckon (unless they were already in full production) they'd pull it after the A9 announcement - it's likely to look a bit lame by comparison, even if a lot cheaper. they haven't been setting the world on fire with their innovations of late
Strong point. And you have to hand it to Sony. They've got an impressive array of lenses out fairly quickly and in the main only lack the really big telephotos now. But Canon are tremendously proud of their position as the world's Number One camera company and seem to see it as essential to their image. They won't stand idly by if Sony get too close. I imagine Canon would throw everything into trying to see them off. I guess the point at which the big battalions square up is getting closer.
05-17-2017, 02:57 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sony. They've got an impressive array of lenses out fairly quickly
And by the time the Canon is developed and on the market,Sony will have got the telephotos sorted and have a couple more bodies to choose from. GAME ON!
05-17-2017, 05:44 PM   #8
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Who is designing and building the Sony glass?

05-17-2017, 07:31 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Who is designing and building the Sony glass?
Cosina and Tamron in addition to whatever Sony do themselves, IIRC.
05-18-2017, 05:48 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Plus, Sony currently owns mirrorless full-frame lock, stock and barrel. It's not an ecosystem anyone else should be playing in unless they're willing to spend big on the break-in, and I suspect Canon are going to find this out to their cost.
They own it because nobody else makes a FF mirorless. There is no competition, so obviously they own it. Canon has been working on mirrorless technology for a long time. Video and mirrorless share many of the same needs. A 33MP camera that shoots 30fps is basically an 8K video camera. Canon has the technology to make a competitive mirrorless already.
05-18-2017, 08:07 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
They own it because nobody else makes a FF mirorless.
The point I was driving at is that they also own it because almost every other likely competitor sources its sensors from them. Fujifilm (probably wisely) decided not to try; Canon has only just begun to fight. Sony might have inherited Minolta's operations, but I don't think it really integrated Minolta's photographic DNA properly. We shall now see what happens when they're up against independent competition with a long heritage of photography.

I am no fan of Canon - their decision to render their manual-focus lenses completely unusable on their current cameras without glassed adapters makes me thankful I didn't enter that ecosystem, and branding their base model cameras "Rebel" was also a turnoff for me - but I hope they wipe the floor with Sony and finish its camera division off forever.


Then Sony can get back to what it's best at; the production and provision of electronic components without the attendant need to hamstring the opposition.
05-18-2017, 12:31 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
The point I was driving at is that they also own it because almost every other likely competitor sources its sensors from them. Fujifilm (probably wisely) decided not to try; Canon has only just begun to fight. Sony might have inherited Minolta's operations, but I don't think it really integrated Minolta's photographic DNA properly. We shall now see what happens when they're up against independent competition with a long heritage of photography.

I am no fan of Canon - their decision to render their manual-focus lenses completely unusable on their current cameras without glassed adapters makes me thankful I didn't enter that ecosystem, and branding their base model cameras "Rebel" was also a turnoff for me - but I hope they wipe the floor with Sony and finish its camera division off forever.


Then Sony can get back to what it's best at; the production and provision of electronic components without the attendant need to hamstring the opposition.
I don't see that happening. Sony is a strong player in the professional video field and that is a natural transition for professional mirrorless. There is too much of a technology overlap and video has become a huge part of the DSLR feature set. The Minolta DNA is dead with the exception of a few lenses, but Sony isn't building on that. They are building on their video heritage which is very strong and the market for cross over users is also very large.

We can only hope that Sony keeps is sensors off the market and exclusive to Sony cameras. That will open the door for a new competitor to enter the market. One of the worst decisions Canon ever made was choosing not to sell sensors to other companies. They lost out of millions in revenue that could have fueled their R&D dept and opened the door for Sony. Maybe we will get lucky and Sony will be just as stupid.
05-19-2017, 01:53 AM   #13
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This a more more credible news (from Canon Rummors) than the one from the initial link.

"Here’s a breakdown of what we’ve been told, please mind the [CR1] rating. Some of these talking points could be considered plausible.
The goal is to announce a full frame mirrorless camera for Photokina 2018 which takes place in September of that year.
EF mount will be native
New exclusive image sensor for the camera.
New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application
There will be no new “dedicated” lenses, but mirrorless will be “considered in all future EF lens design”
4K video is considered a necessary feature in all full frame cameras going forward
One full frame mirrorless camera body to start
There is testing at Canon of a more hybrid approach between DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. What that looks like we don’t know."

If Canon will manage to mount EF lenses on a mirrorless body without adapter, then I think Canon will give a lot of headaches to Sony.
05-19-2017, 03:00 AM   #14
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If Canon really are doing this then Nikon will be too. Looks like 2017-2018 may mark some kind of inflection point, unless Canon and Nikon do something half-baked in order to continue to protect their DSLR franchises. We'll see. I guess a rather cynical counter argument may be that Canon are pumping out the rumours in order to discourage leakers to Sony but still haven't really worked out what to do and are just playing for time, lots of it. If Tom Hogan is now mentioning this there is probably some mileage to it. Further out, things like a global electronic shutter, if that really is feasible, are going to make the old, longer-register mirrorbox designs even more unnecessary.

I do wonder whether Pentax's slow progress with new FF lens designs is because they can see what is about to come down the pike and are unsure what to do. Don't want to lock yourself into brand-new FF lens designs if they are old hat almost before release. Maybe they are waiting to see which way the industry will jump, if it does. A very difficult time.
05-19-2017, 03:18 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Don't want to lock yourself into brand-new FF lens designs if they are old hat almost before release. Maybe they are waiting to see which way the industry will jump, if it does
Certainly true, but the longer you delay, the more likely technology is to be old hat on release - if they'd taken a punt on making those primes available when the K-1 came out, they's have probably sold quite a few* -still, I'm not here to be wiser than Ricoh - I'm not one of those who thinks that their business sense deserted them when they bought Pentax

*PS - I realise that they probably din't have the capacity, but the point is more theoretical, not a criticism
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