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08-20-2017, 04:16 PM   #166
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Breaking news: all consumer cameras are using lesser parts. Even the higher end ones.

08-20-2017, 07:16 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
The D850 sensor is a custom job. it won't appear in Pentax.
For what it's worth, the K-1 sensor performs better at every iso than the D810. The fact that the D810 has an extra 0.2 EV of dynamic range available at iso 64 compared to the K-1's iso 100 is unimportant. (see DXO Mark graphs for details).
08-21-2017, 01:47 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For what it's worth, the K-1 sensor performs better at every iso than the D810. The fact that the D810 has an extra 0.2 EV of dynamic range available at iso 64 compared to the K-1's iso 100 is unimportant. (see DXO Mark graphs for details).
I have no doubts that K1 has slightly better image quality than D810 and I don't need DXO graphs to confirm that. For me DXO it's the last website that I look at when I'm interested in a camera or a lens. Their lab test are equal to zero when comes to real life shooting. Just as an example, according to DXO, Canon 300mm f2.8L is sharper than 400mm f2.8L. In real life though, I found no real pro photographer that contradicts the conclusion of the guys from Lens Rental. I quote Roger Cicala's conclusion "Canon 400mm f/2.8 IS II: The Gold Standard. This is optically the best telephoto there is, and all other lenses are measured by how close they can come to this one." I know Canon 300mm f2.8L lens very well because I rent it often. It's incredible fast and sharp even with 2x TC mounted on. But I had the chance to shoot with 400mm f2.8L lens also and it's spectacular. After I shoot with these 2 lenses (300mm f2.8L and 400mm f2.8L) I thought my 6D is on steroids.

That being said, back on topic. I see 6D Mark II as a big upgrade for all Canon shooters which shoot with crop cameras and have L lenses in their backpack, 80D shooters included. Sure, there are better cameras at this price point, like D750 or K1, but as long as you don't print large or you don't need the best dynamic range, 6D Mark II can offer a lot of satisfactions and also a lot of money, as my 6D did for me (practically it paid itself, my lenses and the 5D Mark IV that I will pre order next week). There are lots of things to consider when you invest in a system, not just which camera has better image quality. You need to know:
- what do you plan to shoot with the camera you want to buy, professionally speaking
- what options do you have regarding lenses; as far as I'm concerned, lenses are far more important than a camera
- what options do you have regarding flashes & accesories
- what options do you have regarding service & renting
- etc.

Having at my disposal any time of the day (anywhere I go) lenses, flashes & accessories that I want are more important than some 10-15% increase in image quality, which is not noticeable anyway by 90% of the clients. All these facilities comes with a bigger cost, I know, but these costs gives me a lot of options.

Not to mention that a 6D Mark II with:
- Tamron 15-30mm f2.8
- Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 (G2 version)
- Tamron 70-200mm (G2 version)

costs 6760$ in Romania, while Pentax K1 with the equivalent lenses costs 8116$. There is a 1356$ difference. With this difference you can buy a 7D Mark II or an 80D and cover also the wildlife. Despite everybody else say, with Canon or with Nikon (even with Sony or Fuji) you have third party support and options regarding cameras and lenses.
08-21-2017, 02:03 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For what it's worth, the K-1 sensor performs better at every iso than the D810.

It is the D800 sensor without the aa filter. Any improvements are due to better noise reduction and maybe less susceptibility to electronic noise. Pentax should be able to get an ISO 50 out of it as well after all they got iso 80 out of the k-5.

08-21-2017, 02:28 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I have no doubts that K1 has slightly better image quality than D810 and I don't need DXO graphs to confirm that. For me DXO it's the last website that I look at when I'm interested in a camera or a lens. Their lab test are equal to zero when comes to real life shooting. Just as an example, according to DXO, Canon 300mm f2.8L is sharper than 400mm f2.8L. In real life though, I found no real pro photographer that contradicts the conclusion of the guys from Lens Rental. I quote Roger Cicala's conclusion "Canon 400mm f/2.8 IS II: The Gold Standard. This is optically the best telephoto there is, and all other lenses are measured by how close they can come to this one." I know Canon 300mm f2.8L lens very well because I rent it often. It's incredible fast and sharp even with 2x TC mounted on. But I had the chance to shoot with 400mm f2.8L lens also and it's spectacular. After I shoot with these 2 lenses (300mm f2.8L and 400mm f2.8L) I thought my 6D is on steroids.

That being said, back on topic. I see 6D Mark II as a big upgrade for all Canon shooters which shoot with crop cameras and have L lenses in their backpack, 80D shooters included. Sure, there are better cameras at this price point, like D750 or K1, but as long as you don't print large or you don't need the best dynamic range, 6D Mark II can offer a lot of satisfactions and also a lot of money, as my 6D did for me (practically it paid itself, my lenses and the 5D Mark IV that I will pre order next week). There are lots of things to consider when you invest in a system, not just which camera has better image quality. You need to know:
- what do you plan to shoot with the camera you want to buy, professionally speaking
- what options do you have regarding lenses; as far as I'm concerned, lenses are far more important than a camera
- what options do you have regarding flashes & accesories
- what options do you have regarding service & renting
- etc.

Having at my disposal any time of the day (anywhere I go) lenses, flashes & accessories that I want are more important than some 10-15% increase in image quality, which is not noticeable anyway by 90% of the clients. All these facilities comes with a bigger cost, I know, but these costs gives me a lot of options.

Not to mention that a 6D Mark II with:
- Tamron 15-30mm f2.8
- Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 (G2 version)
- Tamron 70-200mm (G2 version)

costs 6760$ in Romania, while Pentax K1 with the equivalent lenses costs 8116$. There is a 1356$ difference. With this difference you can buy a 7D Mark II or an 80D and cover also the wildlife. Despite everybody else say, with Canon or with Nikon (even with Sony or Fuji) you have third party support and options regarding cameras and lenses.
I think DXO Mark is useful from a sensor standpoint, not so much from a lens standpoint. Their issue with lenses is probably the same that Photozone has -- they are doing things based on one copy. If that copy is a good copy then they say it's stellar, if not so good, then they say it isn't good. Roger Cicala on the other hand, has multiple copies and not only that, he has his own bench/repair shop where he can fine tune lenses to make certain they are they best they can be -- fixing decentering and other focus issues himself. This is ideal, but a lot to expect from testing centers.

Anyway, my point is only that I don't think the sensor in the D810 (despite having a lower iso setting) is that much different from the one in the K-1.
08-21-2017, 02:37 AM - 1 Like   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think DXO Mark is useful from a sensor standpoint, not so much from a lens standpoint. Their issue with lenses is probably the same that Photozone has -- they are doing things based on one copy. If that copy is a good copy then they say it's stellar, if not so good, then they say it isn't good. Roger Cicala on the other hand, has multiple copies and not only that, he has his own bench/repair shop where he can fine tune lenses to make certain they are they best they can be -- fixing decentering and other focus issues himself. This is ideal, but a lot to expect from testing centers.

Anyway, my point is only that I don't think the sensor in the D810 (despite having a lower iso setting) is that much different from the one in the K-1.
I wonder if K1's price would have been different if Ricoh would have used for K1 the 24mp sensor from D750. I still hope for a full frame from Pentax with 24-28mp and 8-10fps and af points sensitive to f8.
08-21-2017, 03:12 AM   #172
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A 1Dx Mark II-level camera? The price would definitely be different in this case.

The K-1's price was a design criteria. Going for a 24MP or a 36MO sensor, IMO, was rather a problem of product positioning - compete with the entry level cameras, or with the higher-end high resolution tier.
All things considered, the K-1 was the perfect solution.

08-21-2017, 07:07 PM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I wonder if K1's price would have been different if Ricoh would have used for K1 the 24mp sensor from D750. I still hope for a full frame from Pentax with 24-28mp and 8-10fps and af points sensitive to f8.

I suspect we'll find that kind of camera next year.. with a Nikon badge (D760).
08-21-2017, 08:12 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Going for a 24MP or a 36MO sensor, IMO, was rather a problem of product positioning - compete with the entry level cameras, or with the higher-end high resolution tier.
Pentax were also very aware of the better results from 36MP when using the camera in crop mode - ie 16MP crop output from 36MP vs just 10MP crop output from 24MP.

The K-1 launch, I recall, made it a key selling point of the camera that 'DX' lens holding Pentaxians could make a comfortable transition to the K-1.
08-22-2017, 02:23 AM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I suspect we'll find that kind of camera next year.. with a Nikon badge (D760).
I doubt that Nikon would bump frame rate quite that much in the D760. Current one shoots 6.5 fps and the D5 does 12 fps. Somewhere between 7 and 8 feels like their max frame rate.
08-22-2017, 02:35 AM   #176
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The maximum framerate of the IMX128 24mp Sony sensor is 6.9 FPS. So as long as there is no alternative to that sensor, frame rate will not exceed 7fps.
08-22-2017, 03:12 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Pentax were also very aware of the better results from 36MP when using the camera in crop mode - ie 16MP crop output from 36MP vs just 10MP crop output from 24MP.

The K-1 launch, I recall, made it a key selling point of the camera that 'DX' lens holding Pentaxians could make a comfortable transition to the K-1.
Sure, this too:
a. being more useful for Pentaxians with DA lenses i.e. in crop mode (just like you said)
b. offering a clear step up from the 24MP APS-C cameras

Of course, for Canon - which always kept their FF lens line complete - cropping is not as important.

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-22-2017 at 03:21 AM.
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