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08-10-2017, 10:43 PM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
almost 2 years without a new D-FA.
And even longer since a DFA Prime!

08-11-2017, 02:01 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Crippling is a reference to higher spec'ed current models not previous models of the same body. Since crippling is relative other current bodies, no I don't think Pentax cripples there cameras. I wish Ricoh would have used USB 3.0, but they would have also improved the rest of the imaging pipeline to be able to move the files. They use SD cards in all of their cameras and again, the entire image processing pipeline is more of a limitation than the SD card.

If you look at all of the other cameras that use the 36MP sensor, none of them have good video. Its a 6+ year old sensor and its slow. To slow to run 4K or even great 1080.

Ricoh doesn't have a higher spec FF body, so there is not other body that Ricoh could protect by crippling the features of the K-1. Did they use some older hardware with some speed limitations in order to hit a price point? Yes. Is that different that what Canon does to differentiate between models? Yes. As the people at Magic Lantern have shown, Canon will turn off features in lower priced models. Like when Magic Lantern unlocked 4K Super 35mm in the 5DIII. Canon was using the same hardware in their 4K video cameras that they were using in the 5DIII, but they turned the feature off in the 5DIII to protect sales of the more expensive dedicated cameras. That is crippling.

Yes, I do think Sony is going to take a chunk of the market. A lot of the 3rd party suppliers think that Sony is going to take a big chunk. Canon is still the top dog and they are going to continue to be for a long time, but that doesn't mean that Sony is not gaining market share.
Sony are now saying the industry sales figures show they are #2 in FF cameras, at least by value. I'd guess it might not be long before they are #2 full stop.

Sony are in a strong position. The A9 series and Sony's own speculations indicate that the present A9 is quite likely to be followed by a couple more cameras, one a walk-around offer like the vanilla A7 and the other a high-res landscape monster. Canon and Nikon really don't have much to put beside them. Sony own the key technology so the game is theirs to lose. Other players are irrelevant. They may find a little niche for themselves and/or manage to supplant another little player but they aren't in a position to influence anything and most of their energies probably have to go just on struggling to stay afloat.

I've always seen Canon as the worst offender at the crippling ramp, followed by Nikon. No one seems that fussed what anyone else does.
08-11-2017, 02:33 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sony are now saying the industry sales figures show they are #2 in FF cameras, at least by value. I'd guess it might not be long before they are #2 full stop.
* In a 5 minutes interval.
* According to a study performed in selected Sony Stores.
Sorry, I had to say it
08-11-2017, 03:07 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
* In a 5 minutes interval.
* According to a study performed in selected Sony Stores.
Sorry, I had to say it
Sony trolling again? It would not surprise me though this is based on an article yesterday - Sony says clearly: “APS-C Forever!” - which doesn't mention selected Sony stores, that I can see. I'm not that fussed. Without a concerted attempt by Nikon (and Canon) to offer something to match what Sony are doing, it's going to happen soon anyway if it hasn't already.

08-11-2017, 03:53 AM   #65
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No, this is the "Non Pentax Cameras" section so mentioning Sony here is not trolling per se

On the IR article there was already a footnote clarifying that this is only about FF cameras, YTD (and not in overall ILC sales) - but they don't say how it was measured. You have to be very careful with marketing statements
I wonder if they'll stay #2 after the D850.
08-11-2017, 04:06 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, this is the "Non Pentax Cameras" section so mentioning Sony here is not trolling per se

On the IR article there was already a footnote clarifying that this is only about FF cameras, YTD (and not in overall ILC sales) - but they don't say how it was measured. You have to be very careful with marketing statements
I wonder if they'll stay #2 after the D850.
I meant it is Sony themselves doing the trolling not you, obvs. Sony owns the key tech and Nikon doesn't. Nikon issue the D850, Sony issue an A9R high-res number with all their tech piled into it. Nikon issue a D760. Sony issue another A9 model or a third-gen A7 again with all their latest tech piled into it - and by this stage all the Sony cams have excellent IBIS and a lot of clever software inside them. If Nikon sit there iterating DSLRs every now and then, they will be #3 fairly swiftly I should imagine. Bear in mind that a lot of this comes down to world markets. Japan plus Asia is a larger market for everything than Europe plus America. Japan plus Asia contains a far higher proportion of mirrorless buyers. Nikon doing well in Europe, say, is no substitute for doing well in Japan + Asia.
08-11-2017, 04:36 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I meant it is Sony themselves doing the trolling not you, obvs. Sony owns the key tech and Nikon doesn't. Nikon issue the D850, Sony issue an A9R high-res number with all their tech piled into it. Nikon issue a D760. Sony issue another A9 model or a third-gen A7 again with all their latest tech piled into it - and by this stage all the Sony cams have excellent IBIS and a lot of clever software inside them. If Nikon sit there iterating DSLRs every now and then, they will be #3 fairly swiftly I should imagine. Bear in mind that a lot of this comes down to world markets. Japan plus Asia is a larger market for everything than Europe plus America. Japan plus Asia contains a far higher proportion of mirrorless buyers. Nikon doing well in Europe, say, is no substitute for doing well in Japan + Asia.
I think Kunzite is right, in that Sony took a section of the year and said they were number 2 for full frame ILC sales for that segment of the year. Nice, except it is more dependent on recent releases. If several months go by from the A9 release and Nikon releases a D610 and D810 sequel, they will increase sales significantly and move back up -- till Sony releases something else.

08-11-2017, 04:50 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Kunzite is right, in that Sony took a section of the year and said they were number 2 for full frame ILC sales for that segment of the year. Nice, except it is more dependent on recent releases. If several months go by from the A9 release and Nikon releases a D610 and D810 sequel, they will increase sales significantly and move back up -- till Sony releases something else.
Look at the CIPA figures for the first six months of the year, particularly cash value not units. There may be ups and downs but Nikon's trajectory is downwards to #3 spot unless they capitulate and introduce a serious mirrorless line of some sort, at least on APS-C. Canon have already started to cover themselves with their M series cameras. Nikon currently have nothing to offer a significant slice of buyers and Sony own the key technology. I can't stand Sony myself but one has to pay attention to the way the world is going, particularly in Japan + Asia which is where the real scrapping for supremacy is taking place, I imagine.

Last edited by mecrox; 08-11-2017 at 05:07 AM.
08-11-2017, 05:59 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I meant it is Sony themselves doing the trolling not you, obvs. Sony owns the key tech and Nikon doesn't. Nikon issue the D850, Sony issue an A9R high-res number with all their tech piled into it. Nikon issue a D760. Sony issue another A9 model or a third-gen A7 again with all their latest tech piled into it - and by this stage all the Sony cams have excellent IBIS and a lot of clever software inside them. If Nikon sit there iterating DSLRs every now and then, they will be #3 fairly swiftly I should imagine. Bear in mind that a lot of this comes down to world markets. Japan plus Asia is a larger market for everything than Europe plus America. Japan plus Asia contains a far higher proportion of mirrorless buyers. Nikon doing well in Europe, say, is no substitute for doing well in Japan + Asia.
Thank you for the clarification.

I don't think it's about who "owns the key tech" - Sony has the sensors, but the sensors are just a part of the equation.
Besides, do you have any information of a Sony response to the D850?
08-11-2017, 06:16 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Thank you for the clarification.

I don't think it's about who "owns the key tech" - Sony has the sensors, but the sensors are just a part of the equation.
Besides, do you have any information of a Sony response to the D850?
Sony can very easily make life difficult for competitors by not selling them their most current sophisticated sensor but a rung or two down, thereby forcing them to faffle around developing AF and read-out systems maybe on custom sensors of their own, not to mention scene recognition, face-tracking down to individuals and all the rest.

Sony's G lenses are predicated on resolutions into three figures, apparently. It's fairly obvious they won't mess around when they introduce a high-res model to replace the A7R, for example. I would see that happening before all that long, ditto with the vanilla A7. The G lenses and the A9 suggest that Sony is keen to up their game as far as they can take it.

I doubt camera companies follow the response to A response to B ding dong. They each follow their own paths charted long in advance. The 'response' and 'fight' stuff is largely in the mind of observers.
08-11-2017, 06:19 AM   #71
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It is important to separate Sony the sensor maker from Sony the camera maker. As far as I can tell, Sony the sensor maker will sell their sensors to anyone -- given the right price -- and will allow other companies to make their own tweaks to those sensors. Nikon and Pentax cameras actually outperform Sony cameras that use the same (or similar) sensors. Just look at the A7r versus the D810 and K-1 cameras.

So much depends on what Nikon comes up with in the coming months, particularly maybe a D610 sequel. That is the sort of camera that could move a lot of units.
08-11-2017, 08:52 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is important to separate Sony the sensor maker from Sony the camera maker. As far as I can tell, Sony the sensor maker will sell their sensors to anyone -- given the right price -- and will allow other companies to make their own tweaks to those sensors. Nikon and Pentax cameras actually outperform Sony cameras that use the same (or similar) sensors. Just look at the A7r versus the D810 and K-1 cameras.

So much depends on what Nikon comes up with in the coming months, particularly maybe a D610 sequel. That is the sort of camera that could move a lot of units.
Maybe, but those sensors are all quite long in the tooth. Sony look a lot more determined now than they did a few years ago. They've got some formidable tech on board now and I'd be surprised if they shared it at least for a while.

The #2 spot is not about only FF but can be extended to all formats summed into cash turnover, etc. Sony are very strong in compacts, pretty good at APS-C and strong in FF. They also have a big video/broadcast presence, too, of course. Nikon are dependent on DSLRs or bust. Failure to diversify successfully beyond conventional cameras and beyond photography has almost brought them to their knees. TBH they are on track to become a minor outfit compared to the amount of ground Sony cover.
08-11-2017, 10:13 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is important to separate Sony the sensor maker from Sony the camera maker. As far as I can tell, Sony the sensor maker will sell their sensors to anyone -- given the right price -- and will allow other companies to make their own tweaks to those sensors. Nikon and Pentax cameras actually outperform Sony cameras that use the same (or similar) sensors. Just look at the A7r versus the D810 and K-1 cameras.

So much depends on what Nikon comes up with in the coming months, particularly maybe a D610 sequel. That is the sort of camera that could move a lot of units.


It could... yet it could also crush D750 sales. My guess is the D610 and D750 merge into one camera line.. why would they launch a D610 when it would have better or the same features as the D750? Surely it would come with the flipscreen, updated autofocus, etc already on the D750. Unless they pull a D7500 and remove features haha but then people will just buy the D750 or stay with it... I think they have too many FF bodies.
08-11-2017, 10:27 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
It could... yet it could also crush D750 sales. My guess is the D610 and D750 merge into one camera line.. why would they launch a D610 when it would have better or the same features as the D750? Surely it would come with the flipscreen, updated autofocus, etc already on the D750. Unless they pull a D7500 and remove features haha but then people will just buy the D750 or stay with it... I think they have too many FF bodies.
I have no idea. But the D750 was announced in September of 2014, while the D610 was announced October of 2013. I am sure new sales of both are lagging as they are pretty long in the tooth. I agree that it would make sense to give the D620 (or whatever they call it) specs that are at least as good as the current D750 and a few added features (4K video, improved AF module).

I always got the impression that the D750 was a slightly more expensive D610 with beefed up frame rate for folks who were sports shooters but couldn't afford D5s or cameras like that.
08-11-2017, 10:53 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I have no idea. But the D750 was announced in September of 2014, while the D610 was announced October of 2013. I am sure new sales of both are lagging as they are pretty long in the tooth. I agree that it would make sense to give the D620 (or whatever they call it) specs that are at least as good as the current D750 and a few added features (4K video, improved AF module).

I always got the impression that the D750 was a slightly more expensive D610 with beefed up frame rate for folks who were sports shooters but couldn't afford D5s or cameras like that.


Sales are still brisk for the D750.. they keep selling out. I see 'more on the way' on B&H and Adorama fairly regularly.. I've kind of been watching for the past few months intensely.




The D750 has a much improved AF system, flip screen, higher resolution on the LCD screen, slightly faster burst, better battery life.. over the D610.


They currently have a situation where if they update the D610, they wind up giving it features the D750 already haves. That means they either discontinue the D750 or also update it too to keep the positioning similar. I don't think 4k is going to be enough to convince photographers to go with a D620 over a D750, yet the only way to really improve a D610 is to give it what the D750 already has. Tough spot.


And since they seem to be tight on funds these days, I think they end up discontinuing the D610, milking the D750 and then updating that when the time comes (hopefully sooner than later).


I've read (rumor obviously since it isn't out yet) that Nikon intends on selling the D810 alongside the D850. So I think the D810 takes the D750's tier and the D750 takes the D610's tier, provided that rumor is correct.
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