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08-17-2017, 03:14 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by dan rentea Quote
it's funny how marketing works...
yes ![COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added 08-17-17 at 09:14 PM ----------

08-17-2017, 03:19 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
They still put everything they could to still be under that price point. That's a little different from withholding or not turning on certain features to try to get folks to buy a more expensive product.
More or less. To those who are into landscape, all the featured included in K1 worth probably even more than 2000$. If I would have been into landscape, I would probably paid without blinking 3000$ for K1. For the ones who need better af and flash system, Ricoh cut off some features and because they said that the price was a concern for them, then to me Ricoh didn't included a better af or a better flash system because of the final costs and that is what I call crippling.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as auto focus goes, the K-1 was the best Pentax camera at the time of its release. I don't think the K3 II is any better -- certainly it has a different auto focus system though as it would make little sense to stick an APS-C sensor array in a full frame camera (although it has been done before).

We are still arguing about what the word crippling means. Every camera is a compromise and that is a lot more palatable word for Pentaxians than crippled.
K-3 II's af is not improved over K3, despite the fact that Ricoh annouced that on their press release. So, it was just some marketing there? Because I was the first romanian owner of K-3 II because of those specs. I found out that shake reduction was the same, af was the same...

As I said, everyone can use the right word to describe it. When people from this forum speak about Nikon, Canon, Sony, they use the term cripple. Pentaxians prefer to use the term "compromise" when somenone else speak about Pentax cameras. That's fine by me. But that doesn't mean that I have to use the same term just because someone else prefer this term over the other.

And yes, to quote you "every camera is a compromise".

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-17-2017 at 04:16 AM.
08-17-2017, 03:21 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpit Quote
I have told you three times but you don't seem to read different opinions. Read and think what I'm talking about and you can understand my point.
Pentax doesn't have any better AF module than that of the K-1!!! How many times do I have to write it? If the K-3 for example had a better AF module that they didn't use on K-1 I would agree with you in the crippled camera thing (or intentionally degraded - that is what I'm talking about). If you know that Pentax had a better AF module in their hands (or at their labs) at the time of development of the K-1 then you have a point. But these are not just assumptions (or marketing talking like my points you say they are) these things are science fiction. The low price comes from their marketing policy (I believe that the K-1 would easily cost $500-1000 if it wear the canonikon mark on it and still would be a bargain) - the fact that they knew very well those weak points in comparison with the competition and finally the fact that Pentax is a small firm and must be aggresive at pricing if they want to attract customers.
Well put.
They even improved their existing "best" AF module, the SAFOX 12 has new, folded optics to increase the light path and widen the covered area a little (that's how they got the extra AF points).
08-17-2017, 03:46 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Lawyer? Another misused term. Perhaps you mean advocate? (since in Romanian, it's "avocat" for both). Are you Canon's advocate on Pentaxforums, then?
No, I'm the guy who:
- knows a lot better than you the market from the perspective of someone who uses a lot of cameras from different systems
- the strenghts and weakness of Pentax K1 compared to competition
- has images when needed to back up his comments

You're just making noise over a common term I used. On Canon forum people say that 5D Mark IV is crippled because the lack of XQD card slot and no one is making noise about the term cripple. But you do, because you like noise... It is a word used to describe something that lacks on a camera from the point of view of someone, not just to protect other products from the same company. So, feel free to use wikipedia each and every time you need to.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-17-2017 at 04:18 AM.
08-17-2017, 04:45 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
No, I'm the guy who:
- knows a lot better than you
That's it? This is why you can't concede anything, no matter how trivial, not even the meaning of a word? That's why you're not listening to any argument? That's why you don't even care what the discussion is about?
Thank you; now I know beyond any doubt.

For the other people: apologies for continuing this pointless discussion. It won't have to repeat again.
08-17-2017, 05:33 AM - 1 Like   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That's it? This is why you can't concede anything, no matter how trivial, not even the meaning of a word? That's why you're not listening to any argument? That's why you don't even care what the discussion is about?
Thank you; now I know beyond any doubt.

For the other people: apologies for continuing this pointless discussion. It won't have to repeat again.
The fact that you acted like an offended person for more than 4 pages when no one else cared about this term until you made some noise as you like to do, makes me ignore you from now on. At least when Normhead said he was offended by an expression which is common in Romania but unknown in other countries I understood and respected his point of view and deleted my comments and I also applogised to him. In your case I won't do that because as I said, you like to make noise over a common term used by photographers.

To some, the term cripple is used only when a camera has fewer specs than people expected in order to protect the sales for more expensive cameras. To others, this terms applies even when a camera has not the best specs because the manufacturer wanted to maintain a certain price so it cut off some features.

Regarding the "I know better than you the market", I can prove it to you with my eyes closed. There is a difference between us: you read specs, and I go out and shoot with lots of cameras. If you give me a K1, I know exactly how I can use its weekness in my advantages. I can say the same thing regarding a lot of cameras from Nikon, Canon, Fuji and also from Sony (A6300 and A6500). If you think you can handle it, you know how to find me. Until then, you can make all the noise in the world because I'm not responding to this so pretended offence of yours.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-17-2017 at 07:48 AM.
08-17-2017, 06:12 AM - 2 Likes   #127
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God crippled me because he didn't give me wings. But at least I am not a wingless duck like Donald. Darn Walt Disney.

08-17-2017, 06:16 AM   #128
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The new Canon and nightscapes:
Testing the Canon 6D Mark II for Nightscapes | The Amazing Sky
Weird... the 6D Mark II samples looks a bit mushy... perhaps something happened during the test.
08-17-2017, 07:38 AM   #129
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and the beat goes on..
08-17-2017, 08:15 AM   #130
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I don't see this camera attracting folks who are currently using Pentax or Nikon (although I could be wrong), but I suppose the question is whether this is enough of an upgrade that someone who is shooting, a 6D or 80D would see it as a real upgrade. I don't really know the answer, but I do know from my experience with Pentax that it is awfully easy to skip a generation -- to go from a K20 to a K5 to a K3 II and skip the intermediate steps like the K5 II and K7. It isn't that they don't offer real improvements in function, but unless your camera is wearing out they don't offer enough improvement that you really need to go them.
08-17-2017, 11:02 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't see this camera attracting folks who are currently using Pentax or Nikon (although I could be wrong), but I suppose the question is whether this is enough of an upgrade that someone who is shooting, a 6D or 80D would see it as a real upgrade.
As a owner of 6D, I do like the improvments in the area I'm interested in: resolution, number of fps from 4.4 to 6.5 and also the af from 11 points with just one cross type to 45 af points, all of them being cross type and 27 of them being compatible with f8 (lenses with TC's).

But to be honest, at this current price it's not that much tempting. I have to give it a try through and rent it for a few days to compare it side by side with my 6D. At this moment I have 2 alternatives as a present for my upcoming birthday, which is 2 months from now:
1. Buying the upcoming 85mm f1.4L lens which has new optics and image stabilisation.
2. Adding 450$ to those 2000$ (the money I would have to spend on 6D Mark II) and buy a 5D Mark IV from a reputable store from Ebay.

Knowing what 5D Mark IV can do and having at my disposal the 135mm f2L lens, I'm more tempted to buy 5D Mark IV. 6D Mark II would probably starts to be desired when the price will drop to 1400-1500$.
08-17-2017, 02:08 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
and the beat goes on..
+1. Some people apparently have a lot of free time.
08-17-2017, 04:45 PM   #133
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I love Pentax but with a cheap 5D body from eBay you can try some of the more exotic lenses which Pentax does not support anymore...
08-17-2017, 04:59 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Do you think that Canon made 5D Mark IV worse (crippled) than 5D Mark II? Do you think that Pentax doesn't crippling their cameras? Then why they put USB 2.0 on K1? Why do they use SD memory cards on a 36mp camera? Why do they use an 2012 af system on K1? Why do they have video at the level of an entry level camera from competition?



Canon anounced increased sales in 2017, so I don't think Sony will take a chunck of market share any time soon.

Yes, 6D Mark II seems overpriced. With this I agree.
I believe crippling in this instance is meant in the way when company intentionally cripples the product to avoid competition with another product (usually more expensive one) of the same company. K-1's quirks such as USB 2 and SD cards probably are a product of compromise for the price, and long span of development. It makes no sense for them to cripple the flagship, but a low price point probably forced them to have more compromises than other flagship products of canikon and such.
08-18-2017, 12:01 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
I believe crippling in this instance is meant in the way when company intentionally cripples the product to avoid competition with another product (usually more expensive one) of the same company.

K-1's quirks such as USB 2 and SD cards probably are a product of compromise for the price, and long span of development. It makes no sense for them to cripple the flagship, but a low price point probably forced them to have more compromises than other flagship products of canikon and such
Yes, I understood the point of view of everybody even if it apears to some that I didn't.

Ok, let me put it this way. We have 2 cameras:

- 6D Mark II which it's an entry level full frame camera and it costs 1999$
- 5D Mark IV which is a professional full frame camera and it costs 3299$

In order to maintain the price of 6D Mark II lower than the one for 5D Mark IV (1300$ lower), the manufacturer had to do some compromises in such areas like af, storage, etc. These compromises are seen by some people as valid points giving the price difference, other people who expected more features for the price calles the camera crippled.

Those quirks from K1 that you mentioned are, as you and others said, some compromises in order to maintain a low price in order to be more apealing to people interested in upgrading to a full frame camera. For me these compromises are exactly like the ones from the other manufacturers, except the fact that Ricoh doesn't have a higher level full frame camera, but they intentionally made compromises in order to keep a low price for K1. Those compromises can be seen in some departments like video, af, storage (althrough even the processor may be a cause of the slow buffer clearing), flash system. Adding to that the declarations of Ricoh managers who said that they developed K1 keeping the eye on the final price, makes me think that they could have included a better af or some other stuff in K1, but they didn't because of the final price which would have been higher.

So you see, we have a:
- 5D Mark IV which has the latest technology in it at a 3299$ and I think it's overal a better camera than K1, but I also don't think the price difference between K1 and 5D Mark IV should be that big
- 6D Mark II which is a compromise (a crippled camera as it is described all over the internet) in order to maintain a low price
- K1 which doesn't have any competitor in Pentax land, but is somehow a compromise (it is crippled in a few areas) because Ricoh set a certain price and adding a few extra features would have increased the price. When some manager from Ricoh say that they used in K1 the latest technology available at that moment and then he say that they had to keep an eye at the final price...well, to me it means that they had the possibility to add better technology in some areas, but they didn't because of a board decision who said keep the price at 2000$. There is a difference in "having the latest technology available" and "having the latest technology available for 2000$".

If we talk about value for money, then yes, K1 offers much more features than other cameras like 6D Mark II or D750 at the same price.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-18-2017 at 04:18 AM.
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