[awscreo]

The contrast between the K-1 and the D850 does not surprise me given the $1,000 higher price tag of the D850. The D850 may add a lot of value but it adds a lot of cost, too. Camera buyers with a budget of $2,000 would probably never consider the D850 and those with >$3k in the budget might never consider the K-1. Moreover, the D850 lacks IBIS, pixelshift, astrotracer, horizon leveler, composition adjust, controllable anti-aliasing, seems to have an inferior tilt screen, and lacks TAv mode, the green button, and probably a bunch of other minor ergonomic features that Pentax has that Nikon doesn't (and, in fairness the D850 probably has other features the K-1 doesn't).

The D850 is a nice camera but it's no K-1 killer given the 50% added costs and subtracted features.

I think this pretty much sums it all up, you do get what you pay for. Pentax is a better deal, more for the dollar, but in the end there are no miracle products. I think k-1 is priced well, and I'm enjoying my experience (although there are quirks with the camera that I didn't anticipate, like recently I've noticed hot pixels in long exposures with nr disabled). If I had a bigger budget it'd be a different story, honestly I'd probably be buying d850 just to gain access to third party lens offerings and the awesome af system they have in recent bodies

[ffking]

If I had a bigger budget it'd be a different story, honestly I'd probably be buying d850 just to gain access to third party lens offerings and the awesome af system they have in recent bodies

having waited a while to make sure there are no unanticipated quirks

[surfar]

having waited a while to make sure there are no unanticipated

recalls!

Who is taking bets?

[Nicolas06]

But while Pentax does a reasonable job staying aligned with the camera tech of it's rivals, it is unreasonable to expect one company to match the combined output of all three of those other large companies in term of new gear, third-party eco-system support, and release cycles.

I do not ask for that, K1 is a D800 sensor (more than 5 year old tech) with SR and pixel shift. With SR and pixel shift are nice to have, they do not replace decent AF, 4K and burst rate that any of the other camera makers provided on top of their own specific in house technology like a real 64 iso mode and 32 iso mode for D850, dual pixel AF for Canon or very advanced BSI sensor for Sony. As today the K1 can only be seen as a value FF, not a highend one. And because the matching lenses are pro level and very expensive, it is not a good deal to invest in Pentax.

Yes, it's also a newer camera model. Pentax K1 is the camera that was delayed 1 year on top of being started too late. K1 is good for the money, it is the cheapest DSLR body that features D810 sensor and weather sealed build.

it being delayed 1 year mean that the K1 was a competitive offer for one less year than it should have. Instead of 2 years was the camera was fit to the competition, we got 1 year. For Pentax that really hurting their bottom line. With what the competition has today, the K1 need to be sold at $1500 and and K1-II with 4K, 6-7 FPS burst rate, new AF sensor is mandatory right now ot aim at the high-end market. Depending of the exact features this one could ask for a bit less than the Nikon or Canon (Pentax doesn't have the same brand recognition) or significantly less if it miss some key feature.

Whats the PixelShift like on the Nikon?

It is available on all moving subjects than to the 45MP + iso 64 mode.

Pentax seem to be doing OK doing what they do

No they do not. Their market share is tiny and become smaller and smaller each year. We were used to that. But on top the latest financial results show that the Camera business was a big issue for them and didn't much money recently. The current mix with K70 + KP + K1 doesn't sell.

You know, Dan, third party lenses are always cheaper than brand name lenses. I suppose it is up to an individual as to what buying brand name is worth.

The problem for Pentax is that there no value FF lenses at all in K-mount available new outside of the 28-105 and that alone doesn't make an affordable line-up... And on the other side there isn't a high end FF body to pair with the high end expensives Pentax lenses. Right now the mix offered mean that if you go cheap you are better in Canikon and if you go high end you are better in Canikon. There only if you want the best lenses (with not that much choice) AND are ok with a value FF body that Pentax can be interresting.

I think this pretty much sums it all up, you do get what you pay for. Pentax is a better deal, more for the dollar, but in the end there are no miracle products.

Not today anymore. KP is an overpriced K3-III missing most of the flagship features but asking the price of the previous flagship when they where introduced (K3, K3-II). K1 was OK at its starting price of $1800 to shake the market, in particular if there was at least 1 or 2 more affordable lens in the FF lineup that are not available right now. Remember? When the K1 came out the sales of the old tamron 70-200 in K-mount skyrocketed. And to bad for Pentax they didn't get theses sales. Tamron did. K1 is now outdated in term of features and I can get an A7RII on grey market for the same price. At its current price and with current lens offering the K-mount FF echosystem is simply not interresting anymore. There only existing K-mount users and most that were interrested either already upgraded or are waiting for a price drop... We got a price increase!

Consequences? The sales are very bad, this show in Ricoh financial reports and the managers and directors as well as stackholders do not appreciate that... Pentax has to react to live. Either they go full value or they go full high end or they do both... But they have to do it. Not just doing nothing and hoping for things to sell for no reason.

---

Last edited by Nicolas06; 09-05-2017 at 12:15 AM.

[Kunzite]

Is this a insinuation that I'm attacking Pentax? It wasn't until Kunzite thought it will be nice to say his favorite phrase.
[...]
Done that. But not anymore. It was fun to talk to him, but up to a point. It's a forum so every member is free to say what he thinks, but as I said, we live on different planets. It took me a litter longer to realise that.

So it's better to ignore him than wasting our time.

As I said, one might reach a different conclusion after reading what we wrote.
This was before any "insinuation" from my part, a personal attack and an attitude you're always using when you're talking with me:
"But you don't know that because you don't shoot with other systems. You read specs. I know what I'm talking because I wanted to buy Tamron 24-70mm and I've rented both versions for a few days."
and, speaking of "insinuations":
"The problem is that you have to shoot with cameras from other systems in order to have valid points when you defend Pentax on every thread."

I'm glad I don't live on the "Holier than thou" planet, by the way.

[MarkJerling]

OK Kunzite and Dan. Can we please get back on topic?

[surfar]

Originally posted by surfar Whats the PixelShift like on the Nikon? It is available on all moving subjects than to the 45MP + iso 64 mode.

Try again.

[redpit]

A lot of assumptions here and conclusions based on personal points of view that are presented as facts. This becomes quite tiring but there are many photographic threads in PF to clean my eyes afterwards

If Pentax goes on like it does until this day, there will be a really good "answer" to the 850 at some point. Meanwhile the world might have turned to MILCs and that would be a great chance for Pentax to differentiate effortlessly! Those few that prefer a good old OVF will choose the Pentaprism Reflex cameras.All Pentax needs to offer is the greatest and most bright pentaprism it can include in a DSLR!

There will always be room (not big but no less than what is Pentax current market share I believe) for great DSLRs as will be for SLRs and film photography.

It's like what has happened in the music industry more or less.

[D1N0]

I do not ask for that, K1 is a D800 sensor (more than 5 year old tech) with SR and pixel shift. With SR and pixel shift are nice to have, they do not replace decent AF, 4K and burst rate that any of the other camera makers provided on top of their own specific in house technology like a real 64 iso mode and 32 iso mode for D850, dual pixel AF for Canon or very advanced BSI sensor for Sony. As today the K1 can only be seen as a value FF, not a highend one. And because the matching lenses are pro level and very expensive, it is not a good deal to invest in Pentax.




it being delayed 1 year mean that the K1 was a competitive offer for one less year than it should have. Instead of 2 years was the camera was fit to the competition, we got 1 year. For Pentax that really hurting their bottom line. With what the competition has today, the K1 need to be sold at $1500 and and K1-II with 4K, 6-7 FPS burst rate, new AF sensor is mandatory right now ot aim at the high-end market. Depending of the exact features this one could ask for a bit less than the Nikon or Canon (Pentax doesn't have the same brand recognition) or significantly less if it miss some key feature.





It is available on all moving subjects than to the 45MP + iso 64 mode.



No they do not. Their market share is tiny and become smaller and smaller each year. We were used to that. But on top the latest financial results show that the Camera business was a big issue for them and didn't much money recently. The current mix with K70 + KP + K1 doesn't sell.



The problem for Pentax is that there no value FF lenses at all in K-mount available new outside of the 28-105 and that alone doesn't make an affordable line-up... And on the other side there isn't a high end FF body to pair with the high end expensives Pentax lenses. Right now the mix offered mean that if you go cheap you are better in Canikon and if you go high end you are better in Canikon. There only if you want the best lenses (with not that much choice) AND are ok with a value FF body that Pentax can be interresting.



Not today anymore. KP is an overpriced K3-III missing most of the flagship features but asking the price of the previous flagship when they where introduced (K3, K3-II). K1 was OK at its starting price of $1800 to shake the market, in particular if there was at least 1 or 2 more affordable lens in the FF lineup that are not available right now. Remember? When the K1 came out the sales of the old tamron 70-200 in K-mount skyrocketed. And to bad for Pentax they didn't get theses sales. Tamron did. K1 is now outdated in term of features and I can get an A7RII on grey market for the same price. At its current price and with current lens offering the K-mount FF echosystem is simply not interresting anymore. There only existing K-mount users and most that were interrested either already upgraded or are waiting for a price drop... We got a price increase!

Consequences? The sales are very bad, this show in Ricoh financial reports and the managers and directors as well as stackholders do not appreciate that... Pentax has to react to live. Either they go full value or they go full high end or they do both... But they have to do it. Not just doing nothing and hoping for things to sell for no reason.

We get it Pentax is doomed and you are on a holy mission to save every last user from this terrible brand even if you have to use alternative facts.

[Kunzite]

OK Kunzite and Dan. Can we please get back on topic?

Great idea, and apologies for being so short-tempered. To quote an anonymous artist, "oops! I did it again!".

To this effect, I'll restate my initial point, in the mildest manner I'm capable of:
The D850 looks amazing, I already said so. It also doesn't change much the position from which Pentax is competing - you could always get something "better" (be it performance or lens line) from the other brands, and not necessarily at a much greater expense. Even before, there were ways of reducing the cost of a Nikon kit, a consequence of them playing the digital FF game for much longer than Pentax. Yet... For each Pentaxian buying K-1 another Nikon/Canon shooter jumped ship to Pentax

So, I'm looking at this D850 with great interest rather than concern. As redpit says, we can expect a really "good" answer to the D850 at some point (but not very soon). The D850 seems like a "what could I possibly want more?" kind of camera... the K-1's successor might be similar in this regards. It might even use the same sensor (unless it's customized by Nikon).

[surfar]

As redpit says, we can expect a really "good" answer to the D850 at some point (but not very soon).

As long as its not the 15 years from the first FF to the K-1...24-30 months from now i'll guess,also a guess the 42mp sensor from the A7r2.

---------- Post added 09-05-17 at 08:34 PM ----------

Pentax is doomed

Not again?

[D1N0]

Not again?

No Pentax is eternally doomed. It never is not doomed so 'again' is not applicable.

[mecrox]

No they do not. Their market share is tiny and become smaller and smaller each year. We were used to that. But on top the latest financial results show that the Camera business was a big issue for them and didn't much money recently. The current mix with K70 + KP + K1 doesn't sell.

The point with the D850 is that it's the most recent iteration of a long-running and highly successful D8xx line. The D850 is as good as any DSLR camera has ever got.

Iteration - gradual improvement - like this is standard to the industry and Pentax have followed it very successfully with the K5 and K3. I would expect them to do the same in time with the K1.

Pentax are only "doing badly" if one compares them to much bigger, different companies like Canon and Nikon. My take is that Pentax are going OK within the very limited goals they have set themselves which is servicing their existing base of users. Those customers have a very strong preference for Pentax, because mostly they are heavily invested in it, and for the traditional DSLR form factor with OVF. If Ricoh wants more new customers for its consumer electronics business, then very probably the best way to get them is by issuing more clever ideas through their Ricoh brand, like Theta.

[surfar]

the D850 stutters

Only without the grip,put that on and it flies!

---------- Post added 09-05-17 at 09:57 PM ----------

Pentax is eternally doomed

OH,thats a new one!

[awscreo]

Not today anymore. KP is an overpriced K3-III missing most of the flagship features but asking the price of the previous flagship when they where introduced (K3, K3-II). K1 was OK at its starting price of $1800 to shake the market, in particular if there was at least 1 or 2 more affordable lens in the FF lineup that are not available right now. Remember? When the K1 came out the sales of the old tamron 70-200 in K-mount skyrocketed. And to bad for Pentax they didn't get theses sales. Tamron did. K1 is now outdated in term of features and I can get an A7RII on grey market for the same price. At its current price and with current lens offering the K-mount FF echosystem is simply not interresting anymore. There only existing K-mount users and most that were interrested either already upgraded or are waiting for a price drop... We got a price increase!

Consequences? The sales are very bad, this show in Ricoh financial reports and the managers and directors as well as stackholders do not appreciate that... Pentax has to react to live. Either they go full value or they go full high end or they do both... But they have to do it. Not just doing nothing and hoping for things to sell for no reason.

I don't know anything about K-1 release in terms of it's impact on PF. I basically switched systems because K-1 was the best value for my dollar and gave me what I wanted - a high res FF body with an amazing sensor. I then fairly quickly built my entire lens line up (can be seen in my sig) and bought a bunch of accessories now, I pretty much have everything I need covered. I don't cry over smaller lens selection, what was available suited me just fine to be honest. I'm eagerly waiting for new DFA primes, will probably pick up the 50 1.4, and might pick up a samyang 24 1.4 for astro later on, that should be it for me (unless I start GASsing again that is). If you need something else out of the system, then why wait, there are at least 3 very capable systems out there, switching systems is like ripping off a band aid - after it's done it's not a very big deal.