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07-26-2017, 03:52 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Does anyone remember back in the early days of personal computers? I'd upgrade from, say, a i486-33 to a i486-66 processor because you could really feel the difference in your desktop experience. Today, you can't hardly notice a CPU upgrade it seems.

Cameras have become like that to me. Small, incremental changes. I have a D810 and I shoot that the least of all my cameras. But things like higher ISO offerings without way better dynamic range at these high ISO's doesn't get me very excited. And somehow I feel all Nikon will do is release something to keep their name in the game.
Then you have found your level. It is the same as people who only used PCs to process Word and Powerpoint documents. Or those who web surf and watch youtube vids. The most basic i3 with 8GB of memory and the integrated video work fine for them. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But we still have those in Creative, Research, and Gaming scenes who will always value more computational power.

Same thing, in a way, with Camera technology... If the D810 is more than enough then yes you're out of the market. But there are those where a D850 like camera still excites, where those seemingly (to you) small gains are valuable (to them). We'll never see truly revolutionary advances in the same system type. The revolution happens when the platform changes entirely.. until then its incremental changes for all brands I'm afraid!

07-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #47
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You could post a Bash script in a forum that performs an administrative task. And inevitably someone will start counting instruction code clock cycles and tell you were it could reduce them for more performance. In short, there is a clock cycle counter in every crowd.
07-26-2017, 04:45 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote

Ding ding. We have a winner.

I think that is precisely what they will do with this body.. attempt draw people away from MF systems considering they don't have one of their own. That is why I think they'll really increase the resolution greatly. They can't increase the sensor size so that's the only way to go.

If they can get people to believe there is minimal to no difference between it and say a 645Z in image output then they will have succeeded. Especially at the price point which is still way under the cost of a MF system.

Even if they don't convince the MF folks to play, the number of folks moving from D800/810 will still make it a success.
OK, though the MF market is relatively tiny. Attracting people over from it might bump up the numbers a bit but I'd guess the real money would be in sales of big studio lenses for $$$ in lieu of the MF ones. More glass opportunities for Nikon who make good glass anyway. Since Pentax is also going down the path of the T. rex lens portfolio, I'm wondering if Pentax too think that high-res FF is in with a chance of supplanting some parts of MF. In which case the 645's glory days may be past.

There's a rumour that the "bulbous" prism housing of the D850 may contain a dual OVF/EVF hybrid. That would be a big feature, at least for the kit geeks. Maybe not so much in practice, though. Paying out more than $3000 or so to get Nikon's half-mirrorless "mirrorless" camera sounds a bit steep when the simple answer is to buy a proper mirrorless camera if you want one and have done with it. Mr Sony would happily oblige. We'll see.
07-26-2017, 06:24 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Since Pentax is also going down the path of the T. rex lens portfolio, I'm wondering if Pentax too think that high-res FF is in with a chance of supplanting some parts of MF. In which case the 645's glory days may be past.

I find that an interesting consideration. With FF sensors becoming higher in resolution, MF has to react by doing the same increase in resolution and/or increasing the sensor size (reducing the crop factor on MF). It seems to be a spiral upwards in terms of resolution.


Perhaps, in time, APS-C will become a more specialized system.. FF will be the dominate.. and MF will retain the top status in digital camera bodies. At least, I could see that happening. Where we have a KP like body for crop shooters, and then a few varieties of FF bodies (low / med / high) in terms of resolution and performance, then the big MF on the high end.

Basically the market would shift most of the crop shooters into the FF market.. where there is more potential to sell more expensive lenses than in the crop system.

I think Nikon and Canon are pretty much already there to a degree, yet still retain a ton of crop bodies at the moment. But they do have a stair step FF lens system from cheapy variable aperture lenses, to F/4 premium kit lenses, to F/2.8 pro series, then the faster primes. So you can start out with a cheap lens and move 'up' into more luxurious lenses over time. Even with having a D610 to D750/D810 to D5. Where the D500 stays put as a more specialized sports crop system. That is full frame becomes the all inclusive format.. crop is subjugated to specialized use.

Essentially, I wonder if APS-C and FF flipflop roles over time?

07-27-2017, 12:39 AM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I find that an interesting consideration. With FF sensors becoming higher in resolution, MF has to react by doing the same increase in resolution and/or increasing the sensor size (reducing the crop factor on MF). It seems to be a spiral upwards in terms of resolution.


Perhaps, in time, APS-C will become a more specialized system.. FF will be the dominate.. and MF will retain the top status in digital camera bodies. At least, I could see that happening. Where we have a KP like body for crop shooters, and then a few varieties of FF bodies (low / med / high) in terms of resolution and performance, then the big MF on the high end.

Basically the market would shift most of the crop shooters into the FF market.. where there is more potential to sell more expensive lenses than in the crop system.

I think Nikon and Canon are pretty much already there to a degree, yet still retain a ton of crop bodies at the moment. But they do have a stair step FF lens system from cheapy variable aperture lenses, to F/4 premium kit lenses, to F/2.8 pro series, then the faster primes. So you can start out with a cheap lens and move 'up' into more luxurious lenses over time. Even with having a D610 to D750/D810 to D5. Where the D500 stays put as a more specialized sports crop system. That is full frame becomes the all inclusive format.. crop is subjugated to specialized use.

Essentially, I wonder if APS-C and FF flipflop roles over time?
Dunno. I could certainly see a thinning out in APS-C with a move mostly to small mirrorless cameras apart from a specialist wildlife/sports DSLR in the range. One thing Canon and Nikon are weak on is what happens when their older users tire of hauling heavy kit around or retire from professional duties and simply don't need the big guns anymore? M43 and Fuji forums are full of new arrivals doing just that. But these older folks are those with the time and the money to buy a lot of camera equipment, not a demographic to take lightly. At present Canonikon ignore them, basically, but I think there will always be a place for a smaller format properly done. As for the high end of MF, who knows. It's like the space race and probably all for about 15 thousand people a year if that. TBH, give me one of these 5' x 4' items and a sheet of film any day and at a tiny fraction of the price of the digital kit. The other thing not often considered here is the steadily growing return to older ways and the use of film to replace the "something is missing" feelings that can arise with automated digital cameras and the sometimes rather lifeless, flat rendering which can result from modern lens designs.
07-27-2017, 01:36 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Canon and Nikon are weak on is what happens when their older users tire of hauling heavy kit around or retire from professional duties
Because they are making Camera's for professionals not elderly. The D750 is just as compact as a K-1 but lighter. Canon has the eos-m mirrorless line-up now. With DPAF it has become a very decent alternative although more lenses are needed. You can be sure Nikon is also developing a medium to large sensor mirrorless. If you really want a compact mirrorless system m43 is the way to go if you don't care much for shallow DOF.
Compact Camera Meter
Sony A7 II with 50 1.8 and Olympus em-5 II with 25 1.2 (50 2.4 equivalent). It shows lenses cannot be made smaller of you want the same photographic flexibility a large sensor offers. This is why m43 will stay a consumer system for photography (video is another thing) Sure some pro's will use it but not as there main camera or because their style of shooting agrees with it. Camera's aimed a sports and wildlife photographers like the 7D Mk II and D500 are going to remain large because they are going to use large lenses. They will be better balanced that way. Soccer mom dslrs are much smaller already.
Compact Camera Meter
07-27-2017, 02:36 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Honestly, clear your head of this Pro nonsense
I see you read something you did not agree with so you had to go and call it nonsense straight of. Thank you for being so respectful you are the most polite person ever.

07-27-2017, 02:57 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I see you read something you did not agree with so you had to go and call it nonsense straight of. Thank you for being so respectful you are the most polite person ever.
I am very sorry if I have upset you ���� but please accept that yes I have grown weary of hearing that it is all about the Pros when it obviously isn't in most cases. I do think it is a modern madness. The term is used to sell anything, cutlery, shoes, you name it. So what does it mean anymore �� I have deleted the post.
07-27-2017, 03:19 AM   #54
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We need to be clear. The medium format market is way too small to make a bit of a difference in the D850 sales, but Nikon will still use that sort of verbiage to advertise the D850. "Medium format quality for half the price," or something along those lines. The goal is just to compare yourself favorably to higher priced gear. What Nikon needs is a certain number of D810 and D750 and D610 users to decide that they need a new camera and this is it, plus some Canon 5D MKx users to do the same and switch over.

True medium format photographers (from what I've seen) shoot medium format for the glass and not for the sensor (although the 645z sensor is really good) and probably won't switch in large numbers.
07-27-2017, 05:46 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I have grown weary of hearing that it is all about the Pros when it obviously isn't in most cases.
Apology accepted. When talking about D5 and D810 or Canon equivalents. These camera's are aimed at pro's even though serious amateurs also use them. They simply have similar requirements.
07-27-2017, 06:31 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
We need to be clear. The medium format market is way too small to make a bit of a difference in the D850 sales, but Nikon will still use that sort of verbiage to advertise the D850. "Medium format quality for half the price," or something along those lines. The goal is just to compare yourself favorably to higher priced gear. What Nikon needs is a certain number of D810 and D750 and D610 users to decide that they need a new camera and this is it, plus some Canon 5D MKx users to do the same and switch over.

True medium format photographers (from what I've seen) shoot medium format for the glass and not for the sensor (although the 645z sensor is really good) and probably won't switch in large numbers.
If I remember correctly, when Pentax announced the 645Z they said later on, that they were extremely surprised (and pleased) with the pre-orders of 20K units. I think that on the same thread Adam posted that he had heard from B&H that Nikon had pre-orders of the 800 or 810 of 50K units (I forget exactly which one). The numbers are there.

07-27-2017, 07:50 AM   #57
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Latest rumor has it that the D850 is sporting a hybrid EVF

07-27-2017, 08:14 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Latest rumor has it that the D850 is sporting a hybrid EVF
How can this work on real time unless the mirror is up? And if it can't its value seems pretty limited with no pdaf, etc. It just shifts Live View to another site on the camera. Hmmn.
07-27-2017, 08:26 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
How can this work on real time unless the mirror is up? And if it can't its value seems pretty limited with no pdaf, etc. It just shifts Live View to another site on the camera. Hmmn.
With sensor based PDAF. The real challenge is getting a good image in the VF. The diagram isn't very convincing. A transparent oled overlay on the focussing screen maybe. The current overlay is already oled.
07-27-2017, 08:40 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Latest rumor has it that the D850 is sporting a hybrid EVF
Nice!

That certainly makes the camera much more versatile than EVF-only cameras.

I sincerely hope Pentax develops something similar.

---------- Post added 07-27-17 at 10:02 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
With sensor based PDAF. The real challenge is getting a good image in the VF. The diagram isn't very convincing. A transparent oled overlay on the focussing screen maybe. The current overlay is already oled.
The diagram is interesting and not a bad solution for marrying an EVF display with the pentaprism of an SLR OVF. The one oversight is that the VF optics (element "04" in the figure) need to either move or have a supplementary element (not shown) in order to shift the focus point of the VF from the focusing screen to the EVF screen.
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