Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-13-2018, 02:38 AM   #16
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 11,886
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I can see one interesting advantage of a mirrorless ILC with a proper EVF -- focus peaking in the VF and digital zoom. Both could be really handy for manual focus lenses.
Whilst I know you don't like the A7-series viewfinders, this is one of the big advantages they and the A9 offer. 99% of the time I shoot my A7 MkII with manual glass (the main reason I bought it). It's fantastic for this.

Additionally, though, being able to see a bright image in low light is very useful. Yes, it's noisy due to amplification and lags a bit due to processing - but compared to what you see through an OVF in the same situations, it's very usable. Finally, being able to compose and tweak settings with a relatively accurate live representation of the exposed image, along with a live histogram (JPEG, yes, but still) is great. There are times when some of the other information overlays are useful too, though personally I prefer not to clutter up the view.

I'll be interested to see what Nikon's EVF is like. I don't expect it to be revolutionary, but if it offers Sony's functionality with even better resolution, update rate and processing speed, it'll rock


Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-13-2018 at 11:47 AM.
01-13-2018, 05:47 AM   #17
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
pres589's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Lawrence, KS
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,283
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I can imagine something with the dimensions of my Super Program, but no mirror - that is essentially what Sony has with their A7Riii
Remember how the K-01 had that "mirror box" that really defined the physical size of the camera? It was basically a dog house for the sensor and to have a display and such on the back, the thickness of the back pushed the sensor forward vs. something like a Super Program which has little behind the film outside of a plate and some seals. Unless displays can be made a lot thinner, or it's removed, or some other scheme I think we'd just end up with another K-01 sized and such camera.

You think Nikon wouldn't like to carry forward with their existing mount, with all of those existing lenses just sitting there waiting for something like this?
01-13-2018, 05:54 AM   #18
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,288
QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
I think both will undercut $$$ony, the whole exersise is to retain users and maybe win some back that went to $$$0ny.
I don't think Nikon can undercut Sony. The sensor is the heart of a mirrorless camera. AF speed and tracking accuracy are heavily dependent on the speed of the sensor. If you want an EVF that can refresh at 120hz then you need a sensor that can capture 120fps at that resolution. If you want a camera with a silent electronic shutter and no rolling shutter JELLO effect then you need a very fast sensor. Unless Nikon has the capacity to build a stacked BSI sensor they will have to guy one from someone who does have that capacity. Who will that be? Samsung? Japanese companies seem to have an aversion to buying key technologies from South Korean companies. Nikon was buying sensors from Toshiba, but Sony bought Toshiba's sensor division. Aptina was making some CMOS sensors for Nikon, but they were bought by ON Semiconductor and they no longer make sensors for DSLRs.

Panasonic makes good sensors for mirrorless. Fuji has capacity and technology, but they don't even make their own. Fuji and Panasonic have been working together on sensor technology for several years. Their organic sensor technology has a lot of potential, but they have yet to solve all the heat and power consumption issues.

Obviously Nikon has found someone who can make a sensor they feel is fast enough for a competitive mirrorless camera. The question is who? Nikon has all of the other technologies to make a great mirrorless camera, and i hope that they do. Sony needs competition. Sony needs someone to push them to make better products. The build quality of Sony products is still not that impressive.
01-13-2018, 05:58 AM   #19
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Poole
Posts: 3,981
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Obviously Nikon has found someone who can make a sensor they feel is fast enough for a competitive mirrorless camera. The question is who?
Do we know who makes the sensor for the D850? that seems pretty quick

01-13-2018, 06:06 AM   #20
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,288
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Do we know who makes the sensor for the D850? that seems pretty quick
I'm not sure. I'm sure Chipworks will take one apart and let us know. I have not had a chance to play with the D850. How does it work with Liveview turned on?
01-13-2018, 06:18 AM   #21
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Poole
Posts: 3,981
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
How does it work with Liveview turned on?
yuh, I've not played either - just going by reports - but whoever it is seems capable of delivering what the camera needed
01-13-2018, 11:41 AM   #22
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,957
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Obviously Nikon has found someone who can make a sensor they feel is fast enough for a competitive mirrorless camera. The question is who?
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Do we know who makes the sensor for the D850? that seems pretty quick
TowerJazz makes the Sensor for the Nikon D850,i'm not sure if it can be used in a mirrorless body.Panasonic are part owners of TJ.
01-13-2018, 02:08 PM   #23
mee
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,700
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Whilst I know you don't like the A7-series viewfinders, this is one of the big advantages they and the A9 offer. 99% of the time I shoot my A7 MkII with manual glass (the main reason I bought it). It's fantastic for this.

Additionally, though, being able to see a bright image in low light is very useful. Yes, it's noisy due to amplification and lags a bit due to processing - but compared to what you see through an OVF in the same situations, it's very usable. Finally, being able to compose and tweak settings with a relatively accurate live representation of the exposed image, along with a live histogram (JPEG, yes, but still) is great. There are times when some of the other information overlays are useful too, though personally I prefer not to clutter up the view.

I'll be interested to see what Nikon's EVF is like. I don't expect it to be revolutionary, but if it offers Sony's functionality with even better resolution, update rate and processing speed, it'll rock
Indeed it will be. I have no qualms with the use of an EVF in theory. I just don't personally think they're up to speed yet in general.

The odd thing is I don't really see serious AF/AE adapters to go from Sony bodies to Nikon lenses. There are a ton of adapters for Canon lenses to Sony bodies and some of them seem to do a solid job at working. If anything it paves the way for Nikon to just make a mirrorless body to use F mount lenses on (with their own proper adapter).

The other nice aspect with mirrorless I find is you're essentially in live view all the time.. so no AFMA needed with AF lenses. Just proper, sharp shots.

I sort of wonder if the D750 replacement goes this way or if they keep the D750 line as a DSLR, cut the D610 and replace it with a mirrorless. That would allow them to not eat D750 or (especially) D850 sales yet provide something serious-ish to the market. I can't foresee Nikon keeping both the D750 AND the D610 lines around as they are for much longer. Market shrinking tells me at least one has to go (and I'm not saying it will be the D610 but it has to be the D610).

01-13-2018, 02:19 PM   #24
mee
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,700
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
It's a funny thing, but design seems to be an evolutionary process, which is very conservative - total rethinks usually make a short term splash and then disappear, dismissed as gimmicks. People just seem more comfortable with the familiar, even if it's not optimal, and don't want to retrain themselves to use something that might just be a flash in the pan - hence qwerty keyboards - even attempts to make the shape more ergonomic didn't stick, although that's possibly partly down to laptops and later tablets requiring them to be flat
How is this design 'step' from DSLR to mirrorless evolutionary?

We go from a giant box, to a smaller box, to a brick, to a brick with more dials, to a brick with a small grip, to a potato, to a chiseled potato... then back to a brick.

If they just made a mirrorless design that looked and felt like a slightly thinner D750 or even K-1 it would still be familiar. We don't have to ditch all of our design knowledge and start over reinventing the wheel. The modern DSLR design (chiseled potato) is excellent and has been perfected for roughly 40 years.

No, going back to brick design was done to be trendy (for younger folks) and nostalgic (for older folks). If anything going back to this design IS the short splash and quite gimmicky.

Somewhere between brick and potato is the answer.
01-13-2018, 02:24 PM   #25
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 11,886
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Indeed it will be. I have no qualms with the use of an EVF in theory. I just don't personally think they're up to speed yet in general.
I like the A7II EVF, and it works really well for me, but I freely admit it has limitations for others - and some of those can be deal breakers depending on use case.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The odd thing is I don't really see serious AF/AE adapters to go from Sony bodies to Nikon lenses. There are a ton of adapters for Canon lenses to Sony bodies and some of them seem to do a solid job at working. If anything it paves the way for Nikon to just make a mirrorless body to use F mount lenses on (with their own proper adapter).
Yep, the Canon EF autofocus adapters for Sony - well, three of them that I know of - all work pretty well (according to reviews - I don't own any of them). Again, there are limitations, but probably acceptable given the adapted nature. I can only assume that Nikon AF / AF-S lenses require something cleverer, or an adapter would already be on the market - especially given how long the E-mount cameras have been around. So long as someone comes up with a Canon adapter for the Nikon mirrorless at some point (and I'm guessing that will happen eventually), that would put Nikon in an enviable position.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The other nice aspect with mirrorless I find is you're essentially in live view all the time.. so no AFMA needed with AF lenses. Just proper, sharp shots.
Yes, although that advantage disappears or is seriously reduced when you fit an adapter like Sony's LA-EA4 - or Nikon's newly-registered equivalent - that uses a pellicle mirror to reflect light to a PDAF module. Then, you're back to good ol' DSLR-style AF micro-adjustment territory For native lenses, though, it's a nice advantage.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Sony's LA-EA3 adapter - the one that doesn't use the pellicle mirror and instead leverages CDAF or on-sensor PDAF - worked quite poorly for my A-mount lenses with PDAF; poorly enough that I returned it and kept only the LA-EA4...

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I sort of wonder if the D750 replacement goes this way or if they keep the D750 line as a DSLR, cut the D610 and replace it with a mirrorless. That would allow them to not eat D750 or (especially) D850 sales yet provide something serious-ish to the market. I can't foresee Nikon keeping both the D750 AND the D610 lines around as they are for much longer. Market shrinking tells me at least one has to go (and I'm not saying it will be the D610 but it has to be the D610).
Maybe. And maybe Nikon will take a similar line to Pentax, focusing on premium products... or, at the very least, slim down or remove the mid-range section, leaving entry level and high level. They'll have to do something... the model range is too rich by far...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-13-2018 at 03:30 PM.
01-13-2018, 03:20 PM   #26
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,957
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The build quality of Sony products is still not that impressive.
The latest didnt pass the sprinkler test!...caNikon/Oly seemed to go OK.
For the price $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ONY want i'd expect better.

---------- Post added 01-14-18 at 09:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Somewhere between brick and potato is the answer.
Clay, Mud,Sweet or?

Theres no answer,its what the individual prefers....
01-13-2018, 04:14 PM   #27
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Poole
Posts: 3,981
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
How is this design 'step' from DSLR to mirrorless evolutionary?

Same way as the design of am early motor vehicle was based on the design of a horse drawn vehicle
01-13-2018, 08:02 PM   #28
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,288
QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
TowerJazz makes the Sensor for the Nikon D850,i'm not sure if it can be used in a mirrorless body.Panasonic are part owners of TJ.
Does the D850 have PDAF on sensor or is Liveview CDAF only like the K-1 and D810
01-13-2018, 09:53 PM   #29
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,957
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Does the D850 have PDAF on sensor
Not sure but the TJ sensor is more advanced than the old $ony one in K1/D810.
01-13-2018, 11:48 PM   #30
mee
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,700
QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Clay, Mud,Sweet or?

Theres no answer,its what the individual prefers....
I think there is in fact an answer -- It is what appeals the broadest (in what turns the most sales). That said, if you want to play in the mirrorless world right now you either deal with it or go home. But maybe that shifts in the future?


QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
Same way as the design of am early motor vehicle was based on the design of a horse drawn vehicle

Except, in this situation, we've gone from horse drawn buggy, to early motor vehicle, then to mid century motor vehicle, over to late century motor vehicle, arriving to new century modern vehicle, before stepping back to horse drawn buggy design with a motor. If we took the 'natural' progression of hand held camera design, the current mirrorless bodies would look like smaller, thinner DSLRs instead of old style bricks.

But we can see the difference from the A7 to the A7 II in the grip. It went from a half circle / nub almost to what appears to be an actual grip in the updated model. I think it will continue until it looks more like a DSLR without actually losing the entire brick form.

Right now retro designs are the rage. But tomorrow? ..maybe not so much. Especially if camera makers are going to try to shift the market towards mirrorless from DSLRs. They will either have to convince a lot of people that the brick form is an improvement over the DSLR / potato form to some degree or start making their cameras look and feel more like DSLRs. Since people are more comfortable with what they know.. what they're familiar with.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
4k, build quality, camera, canon, iron, k-1, market, mirrorless, sony, trouble
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Come to your SENSORS....$$$ONY! surfar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 6 11-12-2017 12:00 PM
$$$ony and Apple$$$ surfar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 9 09-13-2017 01:57 AM
$$$$$ONY surfar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 6 08-04-2017 09:54 PM
Theres some Lemming fatalities at Sony surfar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 10 04-01-2016 05:56 PM
$$$$ony builds a better bridge surfar Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 14 04-01-2016 02:10 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:36 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top