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03-15-2018, 04:45 AM - 1 Like   #16
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As an old (very) film guy I'm not representative of the market - I still use all manual focus - but coming from film SLRs with great viewfinders like the MX, LX, and Leica R models, I just could not adapt to the dSLR finders with lower magnification & tunnel view impression, with focusing screens very poor for judging sharpness. I tried other screens in a K5, but found nothing suitable. I focus by judging sharpness of the image, not by focus aids (which I find less precise).
When I gambled on an A7 for my old SLR lenses I was amazed, as I could judge sharpness about as well as on my old SLRs, and with a button press could magnify to check and fine tune (but usually find focus was fine without mag). While there is lag in low light, it is more usable for low light focus than any SLR, as it maintains a bright image when an optical finder just shows shadows. An optical finder does show more detail in shadows if there is a large brightness range, but EVFs are improving.
The Leica SL EVF is truly amazing, but not in my retirement budget, after splurging on my main cameras (Leica rangefinders).
I don't see me buying another dSLR, but I am tempted by the A7III.

03-15-2018, 05:48 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Denial is a river in Egypt Mirrorless cameras are on the rise for certain sure, but that doesn't mean DSLRs are suddenly about to disappear. Around 5-10 years would seem the typical run-out period for a technology changeover. Canon and Nikon are yet to show their hand and mirrorless has yet to show it can really come up with the goods in the rugged, D5/1DX kind of areas. I'd guess it will but not before an iteration or two down the road. The Sony A9 is a sighting shot. We'll see, but that there writing is very clearly on the wall these days.
One of the way the mirrorless propaganda works is by endlessly claiming that DSLRs would die, become niche, etc. - FUD to make people reticent in "investing" into DSLRs.

Don't be their tool. Choice is good.
03-15-2018, 06:28 AM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
One of the way the mirrorless propaganda works is by endlessly claiming that DSLRs would die, become niche, etc. - FUD to make people reticent in "investing" into DSLRs.

Don't be their tool. Choice is good.
You could say exactly the same of DSLR "propaganda" so in the end it's meaningless. For myself, I think people are going to start becoming reticent about investing in DSLRs in the next few years, unless they are very sure they greatly prefer them and the OVF system or unless they are very sure they need what a particular DSLR offers, e.g. top AF sports/wildlife action. There's little shortage of customers for those two things. It's out of our hands anyway. The industry will go wherever it goes.
03-15-2018, 07:02 AM - 1 Like   #19
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There is no DSLR propaganda. Just people annoyed when they're told how they shouldn't have a choice.

03-15-2018, 07:43 AM - 1 Like   #20
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There is minimal difference between them in terms of functionality. The vast majority of photographers out there, both professional and amateur, use auto focus. This is renders the viewfinder less important except in terms of composition. At a given price point, SLRs and mirrorless cameras are very similar in terms of performance. Will mirrorless cameras eventually pass up SLRs? It is possible, but I think overall we see a slowing of the rate of new sales of both formats. There is just little reason for someone who just purchase a D850 or an A7r III to purchase a new camera for the next five years, unless they drop their camera in the ocean or some such fiasco.
03-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
As an old (very) film guy I'm not representative of the market - I still use all manual focus - but coming from film SLRs with great viewfinders like the MX, LX, and Leica R models, I just could not adapt to the dSLR finders with lower magnification & tunnel view impression, with focusing screens very poor for judging sharpness. I tried other screens in a K5, but found nothing suitable. I focus by judging sharpness of the image, not by focus aids (which I find less precise).
When I gambled on an A7 for my old SLR lenses I was amazed, as I could judge sharpness about as well as on my old SLRs, and with a button press could magnify to check and fine tune (but usually find focus was fine without mag). While there is lag in low light, it is more usable for low light focus than any SLR, as it maintains a bright image when an optical finder just shows shadows. An optical finder does show more detail in shadows if there is a large brightness range, but EVFs are improving.
The Leica SL EVF is truly amazing, but not in my retirement budget, after splurging on my main cameras (Leica rangefinders).
I don't see me buying another dSLR, but I am tempted by the A7III.
I still occasionally use the Pentax Super Program I purchased in 1984. I don't know about top-of-the-line products, but the Pentax SLR I purchased in 1979 had a better OVF than the Canon QL-19 rangefinder it replaced, and my current K-30 has a better OVF than the Super Program does - I even find the manual focusing to work better than any previous camera I've owned.
03-24-2018, 05:59 PM - 2 Likes   #22
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True

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is minimal difference between them in terms of functionality. The vast majority of photographers out there, both professional and amateur, use auto focus. This is renders the viewfinder less important except in terms of composition. At a given price point, SLRs and mirrorless cameras are very similar in terms of performance. Will mirrorless cameras eventually pass up SLRs? It is possible, but I think overall we see a slowing of the rate of new sales of both formats. There is just little reason for someone who just purchase a D850 or an A7r III to purchase a new camera for the next five years, unless they drop their camera in the ocean or some such fiasco.
Because DSLR is a matured tech and M/L did catch up and is almost there in some areas, there are no bad cameras nowadays, but a lot of bad photographers.

03-25-2018, 06:25 AM - 2 Likes   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is minimal difference between them in terms of functionality. The vast majority of photographers out there, both professional and amateur, use auto focus. This is renders the viewfinder less important except in terms of composition. At a given price point, SLRs and mirrorless cameras are very similar in terms of performance. Will mirrorless cameras eventually pass up SLRs? It is possible, but I think overall we see a slowing of the rate of new sales of both formats. There is just little reason for someone who just purchase a D850 or an A7r III to purchase a new camera for the next five years, unless they drop their camera in the ocean or some such fiasco.
Indeed. As mirrorless matures, the motivations to upgrade from one mirrorless model to another decline. And this may already be happening. Mirrorless camera shipments slumped in December and January.

It's also crucial to realize that last year's change in sales has no effect on next year's change. A person who switched from DSLRs to mirrorless can't switch from DSLRs to mirrorless a second time (although they can switch back to DSLRs). Thus whatever made DSLRs drop and mirrorless rise lats year may not repeat itself next year. Sales momentum is a figment of pundit's imaginations.

That said, I do think mirrorless will continue to grow because they do appeal to a certain segment of photographers. But they won't "kill" DSLRs because that design appeals to a different set of photographers. (Some people find that the strengths of mirrorless are actually weaknesses.)

Choice will win.
03-25-2018, 08:05 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Mirrorless camera shipments slumped in December and January.
Yes, and how about that slump in Dslr sales?



QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
A person who switched from DSLRs to mirrorless can't switch from DSLRs to mirrorless a second time (although they can switch back to DSLRs)
But not many do, some retain their Dslr and use M/L for its advantages..predominantly size,weight and video functionality.

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Thus whatever made DSLRs drop and mirrorless rise lats year may not repeat itself next year.
Dslr sales have declined significantly for at least 5 years in a row,that will continue.When CaNik bring their FF M/L to market M/L sales will surge.The 2 BIG companies dont like that $$$ony have had that segment to themselves for quite a while.CaNik want to preserve their market share and recognise what $$$ony have done in FF.
05-05-2018, 06:59 PM - 1 Like   #25
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I have a completely irrational hatred of mirror-less cameras. It's irrational because it is ridiculous to hate a material object but I just cannot stand EVF viewfinders and the micro-delay in shooting that mirror-less cameras still have.
05-06-2018, 04:30 AM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Theov39 Quote
it is ridiculous to hate a material object
No its perfectly fine,i'm in the same boat.I hate Sydney,the only positive i could think of about the place is that its a bigger target for the Nukes when they start landing.
05-06-2018, 05:17 AM - 3 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Theov39 Quote
I have a completely irrational hatred of mirror-less cameras. It's irrational because it is ridiculous to hate a material object but I just cannot stand EVF viewfinders and the micro-delay in shooting that mirror-less cameras still have.
It's not irrational, it's biological.

A significant percentage of the population reacts badly to this micro-lag. It creates conflicting signals in your brain about the motion of your head. The eyes are seeing a different pattern of motion than the inner ear sensors are recording. Your body either interprets this as a problem with your eyes (leading to eye strain and headaches) or it interprets it as poisoning (leading to nausea). It's identical to what happens with sea sickness, car sickness, motion sickness, etc.

Mirrorless have gotten better by accelerating the frame rate of the sensor (at a cost of higher power consumption and hotter sensors) and accelerating the frame rate of the display (also with cost) but it may not be enough for some people. Moreover, no matter how fast they make the sensor and display, they cannot prevent sickness-level lags in low light because of the lag created by the pixel-level exposure time.
05-07-2018, 10:34 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's not irrational, it's biological.

A significant percentage of the population reacts badly to this micro-lag. It creates conflicting signals in your brain about the motion of your head. The eyes are seeing a different pattern of motion than the inner ear sensors are recording. Your body either interprets this as a problem with your eyes (leading to eye strain and headaches) or it interprets it as poisoning (leading to nausea). It's identical to what happens with sea sickness, car sickness, motion sickness, etc.

Mirrorless have gotten better by accelerating the frame rate of the sensor (at a cost of higher power consumption and hotter sensors) and accelerating the frame rate of the display (also with cost) but it may not be enough for some people. Moreover, no matter how fast they make the sensor and display, they cannot prevent sickness-level lags in low light because of the lag created by the pixel-level exposure time.
Thanks for the validation! I feel the same way about phone cameras but they are even worse in terms of handling.

I have to confess my experience and reaction is based on mirror-less cameras from some years ago so maybe I should have another look at the current models, but nothing beats the instant reaction time of DSLRs.

---------- Post added 05-07-18 at 10:34 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
No its perfectly fine,i'm in the same boat.I hate Sydney,the only positive i could think of about the place is that its a bigger target for the Nukes when they start landing.
Indeed.
05-07-2018, 01:57 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Theov39 Quote
I feel the same way about phone cameras
Well,the images they produce are very good.They just cant do the same as a high level image capturing device.

QuoteOriginally posted by Theov39 Quote
I have to confess my experience and reaction is based on mirror-less cameras from some years ago so maybe I should have another look at the current models, but nothing beats the instant reaction time of DSLRs.
The most recent M/L are incredibly good,even the entry level ones.Funnily enough my Olympus(entry level) shoots at double the speed of my Pentax(its the entry level K-1).The moving pictures captured by the Oly are incredible as well,amazing what a couple of generations of video development can do.Neither are perfect of course but both are extremely capable of FUN!
05-07-2018, 02:15 PM - 1 Like   #30
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Who cares?

You folks are simply incredible. Is your whole reason for living dependant on whether or not or not Mirrorless passes optical? Why is this worth continuous posts of the same old nonsense over and over again. Maybe you could limit the speculations to once a year?

There should seriously be some way of being able to stop this whole section of the forum from popping up in my "new post " searches.

Last edited by normhead; 05-07-2018 at 02:21 PM.
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