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04-19-2018, 02:25 PM   #1
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The future of FF mirrorless?



First and foremost, dont bother watching if its not of interest,secondly dont bother commenting if you arent interested.(but i know you will)

Its a Tony Northrup guess of whats likely to happen,a very good analysis of the future.(but thats only my opinion and what would i know?)


Its 34 mins, dont waste your precious time!


04-19-2018, 03:04 PM   #2
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Camera technology will continue to improve on the non-essential aspects of it. New cameras models are released faster than what people can buy. And it is getting smarter and smarter to not buy the latest technology. Old tech gets us 99% of what the new tech gets us, but at a much lower price.
04-19-2018, 03:07 PM - 1 Like   #3
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I would like to have the option of a FF mirrorless with optical viewfinder and optical rangefinder (AF capable would be OK, but MF would be mandatory). Think something along the lines of a digital Contax G2. Even a FF version of the Epson R-D1 (with manual shutter cock retained if need be) or digital Zeiss Ikon would be way cool. No need for video or high fps, quiet shutter a must, small battery highly desirable (weight saving).


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04-19-2018, 03:28 PM   #4
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TN doesnt think that either CaNik will have IBIS?

Heres a patent diagram that shows a form of stabilisation.It doesnt stabilise the whole sensor just the lens array on top of the sensor.

This might arrive in Nikons M/L which are rumoured to be both FF and Apsc(maybe the D850 sensor with a crop mode?)

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04-19-2018, 04:18 PM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Heres a patent diagram that shows a form of stabilisation.It doesnt stabilise the whole sensor just the lens array on top of the sensor.
...and here is the article that gives an explanation...sort of...could not find a link to the patent application or even which country.

Nikon patents a new kind of image stabilization system – NikonEye.com


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-19-2018 at 04:24 PM.
04-20-2018, 09:48 PM   #6
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I watched that yesterday and when he said Canon and Nikon will need IBIS I thought wonder if Nikon would buy Pentax to get it, probably not but it was my first thought.

I just hope Canon keeps the bodies the same size, my 5dsr and grip is the perfect fit for my hand I don't want them to make a little body just because they can.

As mostly a wildlife shooter the silent shutter and high frame rate are the things about mirror less I wouldn't mind having, the evf doesn't do much for me.
04-21-2018, 12:06 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
I watched that yesterday and when he said Canon and Nikon will need IBIS I thought wonder if Nikon would buy Pentax to get it, probably not but it was my first thought.
Why would mirrorless need sensor stabilization when the lenses are optically stabilized?

From my perspective , I can only seen a leap forward with image sensors get the global shutter functionality. The closest to global shutter feature is Sony A9 , but it's not fully a global shutter approach, and still has issues with moving subjects. I don't see the benefit of higher frame rate of an electronic shutter if there are still artifacts on moving subjects. In that sense, the electronic shuttering technology is not yet ready to completely replace DSLR mechanisms. As for the electronic view finder, it is quite ok in good light, but there is framing latency when panning in less good light: the subject is not where you thing it is in the frame... (that's my experience). With the optical view finder of your 5DSr, the image in the viewfinder is continuously refreshed at the speed of light. I believe wildlife shooter would be the very last to use a mirrorless camera: no much interest to save on camera size and get poor ergonomics when using a 600 f4. And right now, I'm asking myself what mount should it be when buying an expensive long prime, if it happens that lens mounts will change for mirrorless?


Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-21-2018 at 12:25 AM.
04-21-2018, 12:59 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
I watched that yesterday and when he said Canon and Nikon will need IBIS I thought wonder if Nikon would buy Pentax to get it, probably not but it was my first thought.
Do you first think of a sledgehammer to crack open an egg?
04-21-2018, 02:59 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Why would mirrorless need sensor stabilization when the lenses are optically stabilized?

From my perspective , I can only seen a leap forward with image sensors get the global shutter functionality. The closest to global shutter feature is Sony A9 , but it's not fully a global shutter approach, and still has issues with moving subjects. I don't see the benefit of higher frame rate of an electronic shutter if there are still artifacts on moving subjects. In that sense, the electronic shuttering technology is not yet ready to completely replace DSLR mechanisms. As for the electronic view finder, it is quite ok in good light, but there is framing latency when panning in less good light: the subject is not where you thing it is in the frame... (that's my experience). With the optical view finder of your 5DSr, the image in the viewfinder is continuously refreshed at the speed of light. I believe wildlife shooter would be the very last to use a mirrorless camera: no much interest to save on camera size and get poor ergonomics when using a 600 f4. And right now, I'm asking myself what mount should it be when buying an expensive long prime, if it happens that lens mounts will change for mirrorless?
Supposedly Olympus has figured out how to get sensor stabilization and lens stabilization to work together to allow for really long exposures hand held. Certainly that is a limited use. A lot of the interesting things with IBIS don't even have to do with sensor stabilization (pixel shift/astro tracer/composition adjustment). The question in my mind is how easy it is for brands late to the sensor stabilization party to find methods for doing it that are not under patent protection by brands like Pentax, Olympus, and Sony that have been using the tech for a long time.

Overall, technology will continue to improve, but the real question to me is when we see some real bump in image quality. From the sensor in the D810 to the most recent full frame sensors we see improvements in video (4K), faster frame rates, more PDAF points on the sensors, and slight bumps in megapixels -- but the image quality is about the same or maybe actually a little worse (if Sony's star eater issues and banding are any indication).

My hope had always been that someone would figure out Foveon technology (or something similar) and have sensors that have better color depth and dynamic range than those currently on the market.

Ergonomics are probably the worst thing about Sony mirrorless cameras and probably the thing that Canon and Nikon can do the best job of beating them on (hard to match Sony on straight up tech and specs as that's what they do best).
04-21-2018, 04:40 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I would like to have the option of a FF mirrorless with optical viewfinder and optical rangefinder (AF capable would be OK, but MF would be mandatory). Think something along the lines of a digital Contax G2. Even a FF version of the Epson R-D1 (with manual shutter cock retained if need be) or digital Zeiss Ikon would be way cool. No need for video or high fps, quiet shutter a must, small battery highly desirable (weight saving).

Steve
Most of this describes the "Q", and explains why my Q-7 will remain a valuable tool for me; I have been asked to take pictures in church tomorrow, and that is the camera I'll take.
04-21-2018, 09:36 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Supposedly Olympus has figured out how to get sensor stabilization and lens stabilization to work together
Its actually Panasonic cameras with IBIS that "talk" to some of their stabilised lenses.Olympus IBIS is very good,some say the best.They dont need to stabilise their lenses,so are similar to Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Ergonomics are probably the worst thing about Sony mirrorless cameras and probably the thing that Canon and Nikon can do the best job of beating them on (hard to match Sony on straight up tech and specs as that's what they do best).
$$$ony are into generation 3 of FF mirrorless,their next generation should address more of the shortcomings.CaNik will have trouble matching $$$ony first up.Nikon 1 series wasnt great,neither is the M series Canons(4K has only just been introduced and has a heavy crop and no dualpixel AF)

Photokina should reveal some clues.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I would like to have the option of a FF mirrorless with optical viewfinder and optical rangefinder
Fuji could have that option soon...kind of.Details are speculation at this stage.Its Medium Format with a FF crop mode...a GFX 50S in "rangefinder" shape...definitely have EVF but may have the Hybrid thingo from Xpro 1/2.Rumours of pricing are also speculation but 35-4500 have been suggested.Native lenses cost a lot but CaNik FF lenses can cover that sensor and all will cover in the crop mode.
04-21-2018, 12:45 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
I watched that yesterday and when he said Canon and Nikon will need IBIS I thought wonder if Nikon would buy Pentax to get it, probably not but it was my first thought.
As far as I know, Nikon the company is still cash poor. I doubt if they can afford to purchase technology. Just rolling out a new mount may be a serious strain on them.
04-23-2018, 03:59 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Nikon the company
SankeiBiz a Japanese website have revealed that the high end M/L from Nikon will be announced this fiscal year(which has only started recently).
So end of March 2019?
04-23-2018, 04:42 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote


First and foremost, dont bother watching if its not of interest,secondly dont bother commenting if you arent interested.(but i know you will)
I hate to disappoint! So "Hi". I've commented.

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote


Its a Tony Northrup guess of whats likely to happen,a very good analysis of the future.(but thats only my opinion and what would i know?)
Tony Northrup again! You must be a fan!

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote


Its 34 mins, dont waste your precious time!
Don't worry. I won't! But, if you'll care to sum it up into three short sentences.....
04-23-2018, 05:03 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
f you'll care to sum it up into three short sentences
I did
QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
a very good analysis of the future
...sorry,thats not 3 but it is short.

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
You must be a fan!
No, I tolerate most of the AV reviewers.Some i just dont look at but thats a personal preference...Hence,my warning about who and the timelength.
QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
"Hi"
Hi,back....btw,have you got that Bledisloe packed up ready for its trip back across the ditch to where it belongs(we only loaned it to yas!)
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