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08-24-2018, 06:28 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If I owned a D850 and wasn't interested in video (and the D850 does 4K video too), I'm not sure that the size savings would warrant picking one of these up -- particularly at the cost.
There are a lot of EVF fans who will want one regardless of the size. Just as there are legions of people who wish Pentax did a mirrorless.

08-24-2018, 06:47 AM - 1 Like   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
There are a lot of EVF fans who will want one regardless of the size. Just as there are legions of people who wish Pentax did a mirrorless.
The term "legions" might be a slight exaggeration.
08-24-2018, 07:00 AM   #273
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2 grand for the Z6 makes it a pretty mainstream product. That's typical FF pricing... 3 grand for the 45.7 MP Z7 is pretty typical too (it is essentially a mirrorless D850). Look historically at Nikon FF bodies... the pricing is right in that range.


Pentaxians may be used to lower pricing... but these are normal numbers in the rest of the market for upscale FF digital bodies and the market seems rather comfortable with paying for them.


That said, prices only go down from here with these.. plus used copies will go on the market over time. So there are lower price points for others too if you're willing to wait..
08-24-2018, 07:22 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The term "legions" might be a slight exaggeration.
Hang out on DPReview some time, you'll see what I mean.

08-27-2018, 02:59 PM - 2 Likes   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Why would you start with the high priced gear unless you want it to fail? That's what Nikon did with their one series and the comment everyone made about it was that they were nice cameras, but way overpriced for what they were.

Sony did the opposite. They started with cheap mirrorless APS-C cameras and slowly grew from there. Even now, they have a lot of different tiers and I'm guessing they sell a lot more APS-C mirrorless and base A7 cameras than they do A9s.

I'm not saying which way is the right way to go, but if you start with Leica-ish prices you shouldn't be too surprised if you don't sell many units.
Why would you invest in anything if you expect it to fail? The point of putting out the top of the line cameras first to demonstrate your technological prowess. Nikon is trying to say "We have the skill to compete with the best of the best". This is creates buzz and brand confidence.

Sony likely started with the entry level APS-C cameras because they had no fan base. They need products to hit target sales number right away. Nikon does have a dedicated fan base and a stead income stream from their DSLRs. Now that sony has a fan base and a consistent income from their prior products, look at how they approached their 3rd generation FF alpha cameras. They started off with the A9. Then they went with the A7RIII. Finally they went with the entry level A7III.
08-27-2018, 04:01 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess the question is how much smaller the Z6 or 7 are combined with F mount lenses plus adapter compared to a D750 or D850 combined with the same lens. It looks to me like there will be a small reduction in size/weight once you pop the lens on. The Z7 weighs about 150 grams less than a D750 and about 300 grams less than a D850 (not sure how much the adapter weighs). The actual bulk of the package is going to be pretty close once you stick a lens on. Where you really see smaller mirrorless camera packages, it is because the companies have released primes that leverage the shorter registration distance to create smaller wide angle primes. Nikon will probably do this too, but it hasn't happened yet.

If I owned a D850 and wasn't interested in video (and the D850 does 4K video too), I'm not sure that the size savings would warrant picking one of these up -- particularly at the cost.
I think a major issue to be thrashed out the next few weeks is how AF on these MILCs compares to the fabled Nikon high-end DSLR focusing. I'm expecting experience with that to have high influence on decisions made by current D850 owners
08-28-2018, 01:45 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The term "legions" might be a slight exaggeration.
Literally hundreds of people!

(but hell... give me a mirrorless K-1, even a boxy full frame k-01 with ibis, good AF and good video, if well priced (like 1500-1600usd) it'll be mine at day one!)


For the Z6/Z7 "fiasco"... maybe too much teasing?

I mean... come on... "mirrorless reinvented" with what they presented?! Crazy marketing people.

08-28-2018, 02:27 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by serothis Quote
Why would you invest in anything if you expect it to fail? The point of putting out the top of the line cameras first to demonstrate your technological prowess. Nikon is trying to say "We have the skill to compete with the best of the best". This is creates buzz and brand confidence.

Sony likely started with the entry level APS-C cameras because they had no fan base. They need products to hit target sales number right away. Nikon does have a dedicated fan base and a stead income stream from their DSLRs. Now that sony has a fan base and a consistent income from their prior products, look at how they approached their 3rd generation FF alpha cameras. They started off with the A9. Then they went with the A7RIII. Finally they went with the entry level A7III.
I just think that Nikon has bitten off an awfully big bite to chew.

Rightly or wrongly, people judge 2000 dollar cameras a lot harder than 1500 dollar cameras and 3000 dollar cameras harder yet. As far as Nikon's base, I'm not totally clear on how much difference it makes. Yes, you can mount your F mount lenses on either of these cameras with an adapter, but you can do the same on Sony cameras. If you plan to do buy one of these cameras and use it much, I would imagine that in the long run you would want to get some Z mount lenses, as they would hopefully be smaller than F mount lenses (none of the ones show are smaller, but hope does exist).

---------- Post added 08-28-18 at 05:29 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I think a major issue to be thrashed out the next few weeks is how AF on these MILCs compares to the fabled Nikon high-end DSLR focusing. I'm expecting experience with that to have high influence on decisions made by current D850 owners
My guess is that it will be about the same as a D850 with Z mount lenses and a little worse with F mount lenses with an adapter. Probably not quite as good at focusing in poor light. But the D850 cameras are fine with auto focus. No one complains about their ability to do so.
08-28-2018, 09:42 AM - 1 Like   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But the D850 cameras are fine with auto focus. No one complains about their ability to do so.
That was exactly my point. Nikon had perfected AF on the D5, D500, and D850. We haven't really seen what they'll be able to do on a MILC. Much of the reaction to the new cameras is going to depend much more on how they actually operate than on their specs.
08-28-2018, 11:38 AM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as Nikon's base, I'm not totally clear on how much difference it makes. Yes, you can mount your F mount lenses on either of these cameras with an adapter, but you can do the same on Sony cameras.
I was about to say that the question then becomes how much auto-aperture is worth it to the Nikon faithful, but then I took a look and discovered that there actually do exist adapters smart enough to give you autofocus and auto-aperture with Nikon F lenses on Sony E cameras (though they're significantly more expensive than Nikon's FTZ). Learn something new every day...
08-28-2018, 11:55 AM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think that Nikon has bitten off an awfully big bite to chew.

Rightly or wrongly, people judge 2000 dollar cameras a lot harder than 1500 dollar cameras and 3000 dollar cameras harder yet.
This is true. It's a high risk, high reward tactic.

QuoteQuote:
As far as Nikon's base, I'm not totally clear on how much difference it makes. Yes, you can mount your F mount lenses on either of these cameras with an adapter, but you can do the same on Sony cameras. If you plan to do buy one of these cameras and use it much, I would imagine that in the long run you would want to get some Z mount lenses, as they would hopefully be smaller than F mount lenses (none of the ones show are smaller, but hope does exist).
Word of mouth and reputation are still important. In the last year, I know of two people who bought nikon, simply because it's a name they know and trust. Also, in the last year I bought my dad a panasonic G85 and my grandpa a fujifilm xt20. Both initially wanted a nikon, again because that's a name they know and trust.

I imagine most people who are looking to buy a ILC , who are overwhelmed by the vast variety and terminology, look to friends/relatives who know cameras and ask for advice. I wouldn't call myself a fanboy but I'll admit I'm biased. When I was looking for cameras for my dad and grandpa, I didn't give canon much consideration. Olympus only got a passing glance.

I'm interested in mirrorless. When it comes time to replace my k-1 (hopefully not for many years), If pentax doesn't have a FF mirrorless, I'll have to look at brands like Sony and Nikon.
08-28-2018, 01:57 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by serothis Quote
Olympus only got a passing glance.
For what reason?

Oly is probably the closest M/L to Pentax....5 axis stabilised,outstanding stills capability...not so good but adequate for casual video.

QuoteOriginally posted by serothis Quote
I'm interested in mirrorless. When it comes time to replace my k-1
That may be a longtime seeing its rated for 300k shots(one of the reasons i purchased one)

---------- Post added 08-29-18 at 08:08 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
do exist adapters smart enough to give you autofocus and auto-aperture with Nikon F lenses on Sony E cameras
As well as many other mounts.

---------- Post added 08-29-18 at 08:12 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think that Nikon has bitten off an awfully big bite to chew.
Well certainly with the "reinventing mirrorless" launch...they didnt bring anything really new for stills(fell short of $$$ony imo).The video has improved and raised the bar a touch.
08-28-2018, 02:41 PM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
As well as many other mounts.
Wait, what? All the other expensive adapters for Nikon F lenses that I can see have their own built-in aperture rings and don't give you auto-aperture. Unless by "other mounts" you meant the lens mount, but the thread's about Nikon specifically.

I admit I had forgotten that Sony's LA-EA adapters also included auto-aperture for Alpha-mount lenses, so the ability to engage a lens's aperture lever from an adapter was already proven. So that's not what's preventing companies from offering a similar adapter with auto-aperture for Pentax lenses on (say) Sony mirrorless... it's apparently just nobody thinks it's worth it to put in the effort. :-P

Last edited by Scintilla; 08-28-2018 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Correcting a wrong conclusion
08-28-2018, 02:47 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
So that's not what's preventing companies from offering a similar adapter with auto-aperture for Pentax lenses on (say) Sony mirrorless... it's apparently just nobody thinks it's worth it to put in the effort. :-P
If you research TechArt Pro and Fotodiox, you will find that K mount and Pentax M42(as well as around 10 others) will adapt and AF on $$$onys.

Fotodiox calls their adapter Pronto i think, firmware updates come from the Techart site(its a direct copy).

Last edited by surfar; 08-28-2018 at 02:52 PM.
08-28-2018, 05:12 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
If you research TechArt Pro and Fotodiox, you will find that K mount and Pentax M42(as well as around 10 others) will adapt and AF on $$$onys.

Fotodiox calls their adapter Pronto i think, firmware updates come from the Techart site(its a direct copy).
Oh, I'm well aware of the TechArt Pro, and it seems a pretty nifty universal solution. But it still doesn't do auto-aperture. If you want that, you need Nikon, Canon, or Sony/Minolta lenses, and I'm saying that there's no apparent mechanical reason Pentax couldn't also be included, it's just that nobody thinks the demand is there.
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