Let the WAR begin!...no Nukes yet.

biz-engineer · 08-20-2018, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by surfar

They have to join in, they cant let Nikon take customers.Canon have the most to lose.It will be really interesting because Canon have saved their top features for their top end bodies,but now they have to at least match Nikony.Sony are prepared,everybody is talking up the CaNik FF M/L entry....minor bombs in the battle....$$$ony have the Nuke up their sleeve,wont be too long and they will use it.

In fact, experience taught me that having the right lens makes a lot more difference then having a camera with a mirror or no mirror. For me as a customer I see mirrorless as a great opportunity to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it.

surfar · 08-20-2018, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it.

Yes, I agree....Ive bought plenty of good lenses on old obsolete film bodies.They are out there.

Another advantage are the Speedboost/Focal Reducer adapters, gaining a stop from a 300mmf4 is nice.

**ffking** · 08-20-2018, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

For me as a customer I see mirrorless as a great opportunity to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it.

short term, maybe - long term, will significant R&D spend still go on DSLRs. I think that part of the problem is that the market is always looking for the next big thing and money follows the market. Maybe SLRs are just an old solution to a problem that no longer exists, or maybe they can re-invent themselves by defining and working on their advantages - it will be an interesting, if bumpy, ride

surfar · 08-21-2018, 03:19 AM

Just a couple of days till "the announcement", anyone expecting a $$$ony slayer may be disappointed.

The F mount adapter is rumoured to be FREE!

**ffking** · 08-21-2018, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by surfar

The F mount adapter is rumoured to be FREE!

Frankly, I think it has to be at least free in inverted commas - the existing user base is the only clear advantage they have over Sony in mirrorless.

**Rondec** · 08-21-2018, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Well,the reality is they have already lost it...compare the CIPA numbers of Dslrs sold at the peak in 2012 to 2017.They are quite "different".

2012 was about the peak for SLRs. If you look at the graphs, sales have just returned to pre-digital levels. 2012 was the aberration, not 2017. On the other hand, while mirrorless has grown as a percentage of the market, the actual volume of mirrorless sales has actually been pretty static for the last couple of years. This too, is probably OK for the makers of mirrorless ILCs, but certainly there is no guarantee that Nikon will luck into a pot of gold just because they have released two high end mirrorless cameras.

surfar · 08-21-2018, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by ffking

the existing user base is the only clear advantage they have over Sony in mirrorless.

Well,the existing F mount lenses might be an advantage too.With a NOT free adapter,24-70 kit and Fmount,Tamron G2 70-200mm, it makes a good starting point.

I'm sure plenty of Apsc shooters havent bought into $$$ony due to Ergonomics/poor WR/complicated menu and high priced native lenses.These people whether they shoot CaNikTax(dslrs) are canditates for the ZEEEE system.Possibly Fuji/M43 users looking to go up a level?

---------- Post added 08-21-18 at 10:17 PM ----------

Originally posted by Rondec

certainly there is no guarantee that Nikon will luck into a pot of gold just because they have released two high end mirrorless cameras.

Yes,of course.But with the certain % of Nikon devotees that will "have to have it",i would expect Nikon to see strong demand.Then theres the ANTI $$$ony people who are not against M/L but dont want a TV brand on their camera.Call them photographic "snobs" if you like.they traditionally shoot a Dslr but with the advantages M/L bring,there will be some who ADD the body + adapter to their kit.

Last edited by surfar; 08-22-2018 at 10:04 PM.

**Lmcfarrin** · 08-21-2018, 04:54 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Mikesul

Why would we be interested in this? Cameras, yes but speculation with little foundation?

Regardless of the accuracy of the speculations and predictions, it becomes interesting because we get to be a part of this technological evolution in photography. For those who do not have a mirrorless camera this "war" benefits the consumer;

Prices of current DSLRs and mirrorless system will drop to either encourage you to buy into their system or remain with their system (to include Pentax).

.... in short what the consumer needs or wants will be more considered/respected. Otherwise, they may lose customers (ie. photographers that have switched to Sony).

As a speculative example, even if Nikon's new mirrorless was better than the Sony A9, but was being sold at a similar price point to the A9, and Sony reduced the price of the A9 $500 to $1000 under Nikon's camera, which one would you buy? = that's one of the benefits for the consumer.

How does this benefit Pentax;

Think of it like a NASCAR race, you can be in 3rd and 4th the whole race and let the leaders fight it out. The leaders will be so occupied with each other they forget about you, allowing you to gain position by allowing you (Pentax) to gain position by capitalizing on the leader's "mistakes." If the leaders dont make mistakes, then you just make sure you dont lose anymore position and wait for a break or chance to take the lead.

thazooo · 08-21-2018, 05:18 AM

Uber Hype. Whoever comes out with 8K or 16K video wins. Just pull your stills from it.

thazooo · 08-21-2018, 05:18 AM

Uber Hype. Whoever comes out with 8K or 16K video wins. Just pull your stills from it.

**Mikesul** · 08-21-2018, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Lmcfarrin

Regardless of the accuracy of the speculations and predictions, it becomes interesting because we get to be a part of this technological evolution in photography. For those who do not have a mirrorless camera this "war" benefits the consumer;

Prices of current DSLRs and mirrorless system will drop to either encourage you to buy into their system or remain with their system (to include Pentax).

.... in short what the consumer needs or wants will be more considered/respected. Otherwise, they may lose customers (ie. photographers that have switched to Sony).

As a speculative example, even if Nikon's new mirrorless was better than the Sony A9, but was being sold at a similar price point to the A9, and Sony reduced the price of the A9 $500 to $1000 under Nikon's camera, which one would you buy? = that's one of the benefits for the consumer.

How does this benefit Pentax;

Think of it like a NASCAR race, you can be in 3rd and 4th the whole race and let the leaders fight it out. The leaders will be so occupied with each other they forget about you, allowing you to gain position by allowing you (Pentax) to gain position by capitalizing on the leader's "mistakes." If the leaders dont make mistakes, then you just make sure you dont lose anymore position and wait for a break or chance to take the lead.

You illustrate my point well. Speculating with little or no evidence does not make us part of the evolution of technology. When the cameras exist and people can use and report on them there will be something to discuss. Social media has replaced the local bar as a center for uninformed speculation. Not interested. I am interested in using my cameras and and hearing about other peoples experiences with actual cameras. Engineers talking about new, but not yet implemented, technology is also interesting - it is based on actual knowledge, not rumor.

reeftool · 08-21-2018, 07:16 AM

Hype? Maybe but there is a new generation that has been raised on camera phones and has no sentimental loyalty to legacy cameras. It isn't a question of how many mirrorless cameras cameras are being sold but of who is buying them and I don't think it's aging baby boomers dumping their DSLR's.

**Lmcfarrin** · 08-21-2018, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Mikesul

You illustrate my point well. Speculating with little or no evidence does not make us part of the evolution of technology. When the cameras exist and people can use and report on them there will be something to discuss. Social media has replaced the local bar as a center for uninformed speculation. Not interested. I am interested in using my cameras and and hearing about other peoples experiences with actual cameras. Engineers talking about new, but not yet implemented, technology is also interesting - it is based on actual knowledge, not rumor.

... then I guess we wont hear from you anymore until then. Lol

RonHendriks1966 · 08-21-2018, 07:45 AM - **1 Like**

Olympus just invested 50 million USD in their production facilaties. I wonder why? My wild guess is that they will come with a fullframe mirrorless E-mount camera and join this war and strenghten Sony.

reh321 · 08-21-2018, 11:25 AM

Two more days.
Hopefully we will finally get some facts then.

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08-20-2018, 03:13 AM	#31
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by surfar They have to join in, they cant let Nikon take customers.Canon have the most to lose.It will be really interesting because Canon have saved their top features for their top end bodies,but now they have to at least match Nikony.Sony are prepared,everybody is talking up the CaNik FF M/L entry....minor bombs in the battle....$$$ony have the Nuke up their sleeve,wont be too long and they will use it. In fact, experience taught me that having the right lens makes a lot more difference then having a camera with a mirror or no mirror. For me as a customer I see mirrorless as a great opportunity to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it.

08-20-2018, 03:23 AM	#32
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141 Original Poster	Originally posted by biz-engineer to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it. Yes, I agree....Ive bought plenty of good lenses on old obsolete film bodies.They are out there. Another advantage are the Speedboost/Focal Reducer adapters, gaining a stop from a 300mmf4 is nice.

08-20-2018, 03:28 AM	#33
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by biz-engineer For me as a customer I see mirrorless as a great opportunity to buy old DSLR tech for dirty cheap and buy the 300 f2.8 or 500 f4 that goes with it. short term, maybe - long term, will significant R&D spend still go on DSLRs. I think that part of the problem is that the market is always looking for the next big thing and money follows the market. Maybe SLRs are just an old solution to a problem that no longer exists, or maybe they can re-invent themselves by defining and working on their advantages - it will be an interesting, if bumpy, ride

08-21-2018, 03:19 AM	#34
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141 Original Poster	Just a couple of days till "the announcement", anyone expecting a $$$ony slayer may be disappointed. The F mount adapter is rumoured to be FREE!

08-21-2018, 03:29 AM	#35
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by surfar The F mount adapter is rumoured to be FREE! Frankly, I think it has to be at least free in inverted commas - the existing user base is the only clear advantage they have over Sony in mirrorless.

08-21-2018, 03:52 AM	#36
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by surfar Well,the reality is they have already lost it...compare the CIPA numbers of Dslrs sold at the peak in 2012 to 2017.They are quite "different". 2012 was about the peak for SLRs. If you look at the graphs, sales have just returned to pre-digital levels. 2012 was the aberration, not 2017. On the other hand, while mirrorless has grown as a percentage of the market, the actual volume of mirrorless sales has actually been pretty static for the last couple of years. This too, is probably OK for the makers of mirrorless ILCs, but certainly there is no guarantee that Nikon will luck into a pot of gold just because they have released two high end mirrorless cameras.

08-21-2018, 04:03 AM	#37
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141 Original Poster	Originally posted by ffking the existing user base is the only clear advantage they have over Sony in mirrorless. Well,the existing F mount lenses might be an advantage too.With a NOT free adapter,24-70 kit and Fmount,Tamron G2 70-200mm, it makes a good starting point. I'm sure plenty of Apsc shooters havent bought into $$$ony due to Ergonomics/poor WR/complicated menu and high priced native lenses.These people whether they shoot CaNikTax(dslrs) are canditates for the ZEEEE system.Possibly Fuji/M43 users looking to go up a level? ---------- Post added 08-21-18 at 10:17 PM ---------- Originally posted by Rondec certainly there is no guarantee that Nikon will luck into a pot of gold just because they have released two high end mirrorless cameras. Yes,of course.But with the certain % of Nikon devotees that will "have to have it",i would expect Nikon to see strong demand.Then theres the ANTI $$$ony people who are not against M/L but dont want a TV brand on their camera.Call them photographic "snobs" if you like.they traditionally shoot a Dslr but with the advantages M/L bring,there will be some who ADD the body + adapter to their kit. Last edited by surfar; 08-22-2018 at 10:04 PM.

08-21-2018, 04:54 AM - 1 Like	#38
Lmcfarrin Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Indiana Photos: Albums Posts: 775	Originally posted by Mikesul Why would we be interested in this? Cameras, yes but speculation with little foundation? Regardless of the accuracy of the speculations and predictions, it becomes interesting because we get to be a part of this technological evolution in photography. For those who do not have a mirrorless camera this "war" benefits the consumer; Prices of current DSLRs and mirrorless system will drop to either encourage you to buy into their system or remain with their system (to include Pentax). .... in short what the consumer needs or wants will be more considered/respected. Otherwise, they may lose customers (ie. photographers that have switched to Sony). As a speculative example, even if Nikon's new mirrorless was better than the Sony A9, but was being sold at a similar price point to the A9, and Sony reduced the price of the A9 $500 to $1000 under Nikon's camera, which one would you buy? = that's one of the benefits for the consumer. How does this benefit Pentax; Think of it like a NASCAR race, you can be in 3rd and 4th the whole race and let the leaders fight it out. The leaders will be so occupied with each other they forget about you, allowing you to gain position by allowing you (Pentax) to gain position by capitalizing on the leader's "mistakes." If the leaders dont make mistakes, then you just make sure you dont lose anymore position and wait for a break or chance to take the lead.

08-21-2018, 05:18 AM	#39
thazooo Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 854	Uber Hype. Whoever comes out with 8K or 16K video wins. Just pull your stills from it.

08-21-2018, 05:18 AM	#40
thazooo Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 854	Uber Hype. Whoever comes out with 8K or 16K video wins. Just pull your stills from it.

08-21-2018, 05:41 AM	#41
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,594	Originally posted by Lmcfarrin Regardless of the accuracy of the speculations and predictions, it becomes interesting because we get to be a part of this technological evolution in photography. For those who do not have a mirrorless camera this "war" benefits the consumer; Prices of current DSLRs and mirrorless system will drop to either encourage you to buy into their system or remain with their system (to include Pentax). .... in short what the consumer needs or wants will be more considered/respected. Otherwise, they may lose customers (ie. photographers that have switched to Sony). As a speculative example, even if Nikon's new mirrorless was better than the Sony A9, but was being sold at a similar price point to the A9, and Sony reduced the price of the A9 $500 to $1000 under Nikon's camera, which one would you buy? = that's one of the benefits for the consumer. How does this benefit Pentax; Think of it like a NASCAR race, you can be in 3rd and 4th the whole race and let the leaders fight it out. The leaders will be so occupied with each other they forget about you, allowing you to gain position by allowing you (Pentax) to gain position by capitalizing on the leader's "mistakes." If the leaders dont make mistakes, then you just make sure you dont lose anymore position and wait for a break or chance to take the lead. You illustrate my point well. Speculating with little or no evidence does not make us part of the evolution of technology. When the cameras exist and people can use and report on them there will be something to discuss. Social media has replaced the local bar as a center for uninformed speculation. Not interested. I am interested in using my cameras and and hearing about other peoples experiences with actual cameras. Engineers talking about new, but not yet implemented, technology is also interesting - it is based on actual knowledge, not rumor.

08-21-2018, 07:16 AM	#42
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,554	Hype? Maybe but there is a new generation that has been raised on camera phones and has no sentimental loyalty to legacy cameras. It isn't a question of how many mirrorless cameras cameras are being sold but of who is buying them and I don't think it's aging baby boomers dumping their DSLR's.

08-21-2018, 07:35 AM	#43
Lmcfarrin Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Indiana Photos: Albums Posts: 775	Originally posted by Mikesul You illustrate my point well. Speculating with little or no evidence does not make us part of the evolution of technology. When the cameras exist and people can use and report on them there will be something to discuss. Social media has replaced the local bar as a center for uninformed speculation. Not interested. I am interested in using my cameras and and hearing about other peoples experiences with actual cameras. Engineers talking about new, but not yet implemented, technology is also interesting - it is based on actual knowledge, not rumor. ... then I guess we wont hear from you anymore until then. Lol

08-21-2018, 07:45 AM - 1 Like	#44
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Olympus just invested 50 million USD in their production facilaties. I wonder why? My wild guess is that they will come with a fullframe mirrorless E-mount camera and join this war and strenghten Sony.

08-21-2018, 11:25 AM	#45
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Two more days. Hopefully we will finally get some facts then.